TripItUp
Footballguy
Yes, I believe that they did draft a JAG in the 2nd. Wouldn't be the first time I've disagreed with an NFL front office. Won't be the last.
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RB Zach Charbonnet, SEA (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Faust
- Start date
Yes, I believe that they did draft a JAG in the 2nd. Wouldn't be the first time I've disagreed with an NFL front office. Won't be the last.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Funny. I’ve watched a LOT of Charbonnet’s college game film.
Quite a few words came to mind, but “JAG” never once popped up as a descriptor.
I believe he’s the best running back in the draft not named Bijan Robinson. Guess we’ll see in a few months.
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
LOL @ 25%
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Christine Michael comes to mind. 2nd round. Pick 62.So the Seahawks are terrible talent evaluators and drafted a JAG in the 2nd round?
Oooookay pal. Whatever you say.
dipandglide
Footballguy
I prefer guys like Miller, Spears, Achane, and Mims to Charbs.
Walker is the real deal, has similar draft capital, and has already shown out. I'm not paying a late 1st for a handcuff when I can pay a late 2nd and pick up a similar value in Spears (he pops off the screen more to me than Charbs too).
Walker is the real deal, has similar draft capital, and has already shown out. I'm not paying a late 1st for a handcuff when I can pay a late 2nd and pick up a similar value in Spears (he pops off the screen more to me than Charbs too).
foxco
Footballguy
By immediately drafting his replacement? Now *that's* loyalty.
sushinsky4tsar
Footballguy
For the damage that these guys are doing to each other's ADP, I think both provide strong "league winner" potential in '23 if the other guy goes down.
I don't buy that Seattle just really likes their handcuffs. Walker's success rate clearly mattered to them, despite the homerun potential that he offers with every touch. 60-40 / 55-45 where Charb's 40-45 is the smaller, tastier cut of the fantasy meat sounds like a real possibility to me once he ramps up. I'm considering him at the 1.7 in a 1QB, but I do have real reservations that high given the obvious competition concerns. That is one RB injury away from league winning potential, though. That level of upside can't be matched by any of the WRs in that spot, or Kincaid, or Richardson at 1QB in their rookie years. Same can probably be said for Spears, Bigsby, Miller later in the draft, but their profile as a potential workhorse probably isn't up to the level of Charbs.
49 Penny carries to Walker's 15 (including week 1 inactive) in weeks 1 through 4, so the KW3 managers might want to hold off on any premature TD spikes too early in the season. Maybe that's a reason I should target Charbonnet in an October trade rather than my August draft.
I don't buy that Seattle just really likes their handcuffs. Walker's success rate clearly mattered to them, despite the homerun potential that he offers with every touch. 60-40 / 55-45 where Charb's 40-45 is the smaller, tastier cut of the fantasy meat sounds like a real possibility to me once he ramps up. I'm considering him at the 1.7 in a 1QB, but I do have real reservations that high given the obvious competition concerns. That is one RB injury away from league winning potential, though. That level of upside can't be matched by any of the WRs in that spot, or Kincaid, or Richardson at 1QB in their rookie years. Same can probably be said for Spears, Bigsby, Miller later in the draft, but their profile as a potential workhorse probably isn't up to the level of Charbs.
49 Penny carries to Walker's 15 (including week 1 inactive) in weeks 1 through 4, so the KW3 managers might want to hold off on any premature TD spikes too early in the season. Maybe that's a reason I should target Charbonnet in an October trade rather than my August draft.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Try to look at KW3/ZC thru the eyes of the coaches, not reporters or people trying to finish the puzzle.
Coaches Coaches Coaches, can't emphasize it enough
Ever play on a Ouija Board as a kid? You realize after awhile that someone is putting enough pressure on the game piece that you are guiding towards the answers you want to see
Feels like a lot of that is happening right now, 1st hand camp reports are going to be critical
If Walker misses time or Charbonnet misses time, obviously the one standing has a strong opportunity to Rake while the other is unavailable.
But that is an entirely different discussion vs trying to compare these 2 players and figure out playing time.
It's mostly wind dip and air pudding right now, relax
Coaches Coaches Coaches, can't emphasize it enough
Ever play on a Ouija Board as a kid? You realize after awhile that someone is putting enough pressure on the game piece that you are guiding towards the answers you want to see
Feels like a lot of that is happening right now, 1st hand camp reports are going to be critical
If Walker misses time or Charbonnet misses time, obviously the one standing has a strong opportunity to Rake while the other is unavailable.
But that is an entirely different discussion vs trying to compare these 2 players and figure out playing time.
It's mostly wind dip and air pudding right now, relax
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
You’re saying Charbonnet is a comp for Christine Michael?
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
If they’re both healthy you best belee they’ll both play.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Now do the good RBs that were appropriately hyped. I bet it’s a longer list.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
No, and it’s very clear from the context of what I quoted, and what I wrote, that my intent wasn’t to say that.
You suggested the Seahawks wouldn’t draft a JAG in round 2. C-Mike was a bust, whether he was a JAG or not is up for debate. I wrote nothing about C-Mike being a comp for Charbonet.
I personally think he's JAG athletically. But he does have some skills in the passing game and does have strong contact balance.
It's hard for me to think he's not a problem for Walker even if he's under 40%. Walker's better in the passing game then I think most here give him credit and the puff pieces I keep hearing on him saying he's worked hard on it this summer. But I still think Charbonnet is a more skilled receiver and pass protector. I think Walker runs with power but he's not as consistent at picking up positive yardage as Charbonnet was in college and to me projects in the NFL. Goal line touches and passing game work are the fantasy money touches. Charb's won't own those, but I think he'll get most of them and even if he's under 40% it's going to sting Walker's upside. I also think the roster has some other highly skilled passin down RB's who will eat a little, but just a little. But for sure I could see a scenario where Charb's is not hitting 40% but Walker's not hitting 60% either.
Obviously a chance that Charbonnet could end up just being a meh player and whatever role for him they hoped for never materializes or starts to dwindle but again because he does a few specific things well I'm not counting on it for awhile.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I’m talking about Charbonnet not being a JAG & you brought up Michael.
It sure sounded like it. My bad.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
All good. I’m just saying the Seahawks have screwed up by misdrafting “JAG” at RB in the 2nd before.
TripItUp
Footballguy
As a podcast I listened to noted, Charbonnet really isn't as gifted in the passing game as what is being touted. Chip Kelly's offense leads to a lot of easy receptions so if one didn't actually watch Charbonnet play at UCLA and just looked at his stats, the first assumption is that he's a plus receiver. I agree with the podcast which basically said, that's a bit of a stretch.
He may not be a bust, but my greater point is that a bust is withing the range of outcomes. I certainly don't think he's anywhere close to Walker's skill level as a playmaker and rusher. Charbonnet will always be second fiddle to Walker in that regard IMHO and there are a lot of metrics and history that back that up.
Dinkle Heimer
Footballguy
Christine Michael's athleticism was off the charts. He busted because he had a 10 cent brain and couldn't be coached.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
I still love that guy
You can't use his current listed rate and then cite the time he ran at the combine. He ran a 4.53 at 214 pounds. That's neither big or fast. He's not twitchy, hips are tight. He's like a slightly smaller slightly more athletic James Conner. That's a JAG athletically to me.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
So the Seahawks are terrible talent evaluators and drafted a JAG in the 2nd round?
Oooookay pal. Whatever you say.
If you disagree, state why you disagree and what you think. Do not do the snarky eyeroll posts like this as they do less than zero in contributing positively to the forum.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
A lot of that going around lately.So the Seahawks are terrible talent evaluators and drafted a JAG in the 2nd round?
Oooookay pal. Whatever you say.
If you disagree, state why you disagree and what you think. Do not do the snarky eyeroll posts like this as they do less than zero in contributing positively to the forum.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
I’ve stated why I disagreed. More than once.So the Seahawks are terrible talent evaluators and drafted a JAG in the 2nd round?
Oooookay pal. Whatever you say.
If you disagree, state why you disagree and what you think. Do not do the snarky eyeroll posts like this as they do less than zero in contributing positively to the forum.
Why have the eyeroll icon if we can’t use it? I will take that off my emoji options from here forward.
I will also be less snarky - apologies to anyone offended. It bothers me when people call players “JAG” without substantiating it and I reacted poorly. I will do better in the future.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Thanks. You’ve been following me around saying nothing all day. Maybe keep it to football. Sheesh.
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Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
You get in fights with Dr Ock daily on here. God, the irony.
you assumed something about my post, I politely explained you were incorrect & you proceeded to quote me 3 more times.
Maybe check your own self, dude. Again, please keep it to football and leave me alone, thanks.
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JohnnyU
Footballguy
You said, “I can explain things to you. I can’t understand them for you.“. If you don’t see anything wrong with that, then I don’t know what….oh wait, you’re not worth it. Don’t reply to any of my posts and I won’t reply to any of yours. “. I never liked your posts anyway.
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Aznflyer14
Footballguy
Agreed (Hot Sauce Guy, we may agree to disagree on the assessment of Charbonnet). It goes back to HC Carroll's desire to control the clock to maximize the time of possession with their offense. KWIII hasn't learned that 3-5 yards gain per carry is highly beneficial for Seahawks' offense and last year he was always looking for home-run. Charbonnet gives Carroll that mindset with 3-5 yards gain per carry, reliable pass-catching ability, and solid pass-protection (and not to mention much need insurance against KWIII's injury).
Have had a similar thought and fwiw their combine weights are only two pounds off I believe, 212 vs 214.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
As I’d posted earlier in the topic, Walker’s efficiency was a concern. IIRC he was near last in expected yards - and also near last in negative plays (e.g. he had some burst runs, but he also had a lot of 0 yard or negative yard runs)
Barry Sanders is the all-time leader in negative yards - you wouldn’t know it from his overall stats. But Walker is no Barry Sanders.
So to your point, they needed a reliable RB who could get those 3 yards when 3 yards were needed. Walker could get ya 18 or he could get ya 1, but he wasn’t a bankable short yardage asset. So I’m certain that had something to do with Carroll/Seahawks selection of Charbonnet in the 2nd round.
IMO they’ll mix & match. A 60-40 or 50-50 split wouldn’t surprise me at all.
An 80-20 or even 70-30 split, barring injury, would very much surprise me.
And while BMI is an interesting discussion, I’ll note that Walker was considered a below average receiver coming out of college. He’s shown more than I expected, but I don’t think he’s particularly fluid.
By comparison, Charbonnet is a talented receiver - and in space I don’t think his BMI will matter as much as soft hands & the ability to catch a ball in stride.
Mile high, I think the Seahawks offense is going to be more dangerous with JSN & Charbonnet in the fold. I believe Walker takes a hit purely from a workload standpoint but will still be a viable RB2 for FF purposes. But there could be some game-flow dependent inconsistency to both Charbonnet & Walker’s usage. Situational football will sometimes mean one or the other is less likely to have a big day.
All speculative of course. As always, I could be wrong. But logically, this seems like how they’ll use them.
osubuckeyeman
Footballguy
It's all a wait-and-see. As a Walker manager that is all we can do. Charbonnet is a solid back and I agree it will be a split backfield but most backfields are these days. I'm more worried about total carries for them both. The weapons through the air have gotten much better with JSN, Metcalf, and Lockett. You can throw Fant in the mix too.
Wise Old Owl
Footballguy
Maybe, but ultimately Walker was ineffective in short yardage situations and they thought they needed a "bigger" back to upgrade that part of the offense. Walker also being a uninvolved in the passing game makes it pretty clear why they drafted Charbs. I roster both players (in different leagues) and I hate the landing spot for Charbs but it makes complete sense why Seattle did it. They saw a weakness and addressed it.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Really can’t put it any more clearly than that.
Can you point me to where they said they needed a bigger back?
Did they take a better passing game back in the 6th round then Charbs? So that what does that say?
I think you are trying to build to a bigger point that they drafted Charbs due Seattle seeing negatives in Walkers game. I will have to disagree wholeheartedly with that sentiment.
Aznflyer14
Footballguy
I cited Marshawn "Beast-Mode" Lynch as evidence. He encompassed everything Carroll wanted as RB. Since then he has been looking someone with similar calibers. (Christine Michael failed in that regards despite his immense physical measurables and he def lacked instincts and vision.)
TripItUp
Footballguy
Exactly
It appears a few are trying to read between the lines or even attempting to put words in Pete Carrol's mouth. Some of the fantasy podcasts out there (which shall remain nameless) have been harping on the inconsistency of Walker's rushing style which is where I suspect some of these shark pool narratives are coming from and it appears a few have taken the liberty of expanding that into something it isn't.
Regardless, it is my opinion, that if Pete and the Seahawks don't already know that Walker is the vastly superior back, they are about to find out via actual on the field production that Charbonnet is not in Walker's class and that they drafted a JAG in the 2nd round. I believe there are historical metrics and trends that support my thesis.
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No, they needed an upgrade at the position in general and took the BPA. They did not draft his immediate replacement.By immediately drafting his replacement? Now *that's* loyalty.
Did you see his workload at MSU? The guy literally carried them.
nightmare
Footballguy
No. The Seahawks needed another RB and I think it could be RBBC.
Blick
Footballguy
I think there's merit to discussing if SEA actually needed to draft a RB in the 2nd round. I don't think there's much discussion needed about whether or not there will be a RBBC. Given that they SHOULD have the best backfield in the entire league, it's pretty clear there will be some type of share either by situation or just load management.
TheDirtyWord
Footballguy
SEA has averaged 31.42 pass attempts/game since 2012.
In the 11 seasons since Wilson became the starter, 2022 represented the 3rd fewest rushes they've had.
RB's not named Kenneth Walker or Rashaad Penny accounted for 65 rushes in 2022.
Pete Carroll is who Pete Carroll is at this point.
In the 11 seasons since Wilson became the starter, 2022 represented the 3rd fewest rushes they've had.
RB's not named Kenneth Walker or Rashaad Penny accounted for 65 rushes in 2022.
Pete Carroll is who Pete Carroll is at this point.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
All due respect, but your opinion on this contradicts what Pete Carroll is actually saying & what Seattle beat writers have been observing.
The “JAG” narrative appears to be spun out of whole cloth. We’re all entitled to our opinions of course, but when you keep repeating this opinion without a shred of evidence to back it up, it’s not a convincing argument.
“A complete ball player” - note, Pete isn’t saying he found out that Charbonnet is a JAG. It’s not putting words in Carroll’s mouth - it’s a direct quote. Is Carroll often gushing about any player you ask him about? Absolutely. But he can also get cagey if he doesn’t have anything nice to say.
I could understand having strong opinions about Charbonnet after a game or 4, maybe.
Or if reports out of OTAs were that Charbonnet was struggling to learn the system, or didn’t look good in OTAs.
But that isn’t the case. I’ve only seen positive updates to this point.
Of course they didn’t draft Walker’s replacement.
But they did draft a complimentary back who’s skill set should impact Walker’s receptions & overall workload.
I struggle to believe that the Seahawks, in round 2, didn’t have a single need outside “backup RB” so they drafted “a JAG” to back up Walker.
That narrative has popped up in here a few times, and seems highly unlikely from an otherwise very competent organization.
Again, I roster neither Walker nor Charbonnet. No horse in this race. Just reading strong opinions in here from some folks that don’t seem to jive with reality.
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Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Carroll has always seemed to prefer some sort of RB rotation - but guys like Penny and Carson failing to stay healthy have thrown a monkey wrench into that at times. Even then lesser talents like Deejay Dallas and Travis Homer worked into the rotation.
In that respect, people fighting against Charbonet working his way into some kind of timeshare seem to be doing so based on some kind of bias. It seems odd to think using such a valuable pick on a player is completely meaningless. That isn't to say a second round RB couldn't bust - but he will get opportunities to show his worth. If he flops when given the chance then sure his role will be lessened.
I do think Walker is the better talent - especially as a pure runner - but there are surely ways that Charbonet can contribute and add value over Walker's in some situations.
Blick
Footballguy
Agreed. It feels like there are a few here trying to substantiate why "their guy" will be the one to own. Anything can happen and none of us know, but I don't know how anyone can argue that they limit each other's upside.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
That's the logical conclusion.
joey
Footballguy
I think we’re missing an extra “not” or “dont’” in that sentence for it to mean what I think you’re agreeing with
“I don’t know how anyone can argue that they DON’T limit each other’s upside”
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I interpret it that no one can argue it (that they limit each other's upside) - because it's obvious they do, but it could have been worded more clearly.I think we’re missing an extra “not” or “dont’” in that sentence for it to mean what I think you’re agreeing with
“I don’t know how anyone can argue that they DON’T limit each other’s upside”
joey
Footballguy
cool. We’re on the same page with the intent of that statement, then. Just making sureI interpret it that no one can argue it (that they limit each other's upside) - because it's obvious they do, but it could have been worded more clearly.I think we’re missing an extra “not” or “dont’” in that sentence for it to mean what I think you’re agreeing with
“I don’t know how anyone can argue that they DON’T limit each other’s upside”
