Chaka
Footballguy
The question is what happens to Josh Allen when he "loses his legs"?
No need to make additional comparison.
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QB Lamar Jackson, BAL (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter massraider
- Start date
No need to make additional comparison.
Tau837
Footballguy
When Allen "loses his legs" he will be a less effective QB. Same as Jackson. The difference is that Allen is a better passer, so his version of "less effective QB" will be better than Jackson's.
metoo
Footballguy
Lamar troll game is stomg.
fatness
Footballguy
This isn't a good comparison. Kelse far exceeds Andrews in ability (despite Andrews being very good), and the KC offense (both players and scheme) forces defenses to cover everyone all over the field. The Ravens' scheme under Greg Roman only forced opponents to cover the middle of the field (Andrews, the RB's, and Jackson). Andy Reid would go wild with the Ravens offensive players, even as limited as their WR's are.
fatness
Footballguy
Lamar should be a combination of Patrick Mahomes and Andy Reid.? Well I guess he's a failure then.
metoo
Footballguy
You come across as saying, if you're not Mahomes then don't sign the qb. That's not how any of this works.
Qbs have been getting paid off the last guy that signed and Lamar should as well.
Y'all want him to have an agent to make y'all feel better. If this contact takes longer, is ok.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
I think I cleared this up in my following post. I have no problem with the guy getting paid, I just would not want to be the team to do it. I do not have anything against the guy personally, he is just not the type of quarterback I would be looking to break the bank for. I am not confident enough in his ability to shoulder a passing game on a consistent basis. I will say with a creative mind and his running ability you certainly can present a problem for defenses, but I prefer to build with a quarterback whose strengths are gaining yards through the air.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
I think it is good as a comparison as you could come up with in the NFL from a personnel basis.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
I think Allen has proven that he can produce yards and touchdowns through the air in the regular and postseason. Will he be less of a threat….absolutely. Will he still be able to threaten the entire field with his arm….yes. He has already proven statistically he can. Even if he runs less, he is a big bodied bully who will would still be able to move out of the pocket to buy time for opportunities down the field (similar to what Roethlisberger was able to do earlier in his career).
It's more than pretty rare, it's unprecedented. Vick is probably the closest historical comp, but his career high for carries in a season is 123, and last year was the first time Lamar didn't exceed that (and that's because he only played in 11+ games).
Josh Allen is reasonably close now, time will tell how that plays out.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Allen is also taller and 30 lbs heavier than Jackson. Of course, the difference is that Allen is like Cam Newton in that he sometimes seeks out contact on runs to try and punish defenders, as opposed to Jackson, who is fast and elusive and does everything he can to not take hits.
Chaka
Footballguy
I'm fine with the Kelce/Andrews comparison.
I am not at all fine with the Andy Reid v any coach in Baltimore comparison.
Reid is a freaking QB whisperer.
So the entire comparison is pointless.
Drop Mahomes in Baltimore as a rookie and Jackson in KC and we live in an entirely different NFL today.
Chaka
Footballguy
I agree with pretty much everything, for the most part.
What I don't understand is why people don't think Lamar can be similar to Roethlisberger.
Great players.dont exist in a vacuum. Pairing a potentially great player with great coaching is a big deal.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
I agree with you on Reid. Where I am lost is what do Lamar supporters see in his ability to shoulder a passing game that I have missed? Are you saying the only reason we have not seen this with Lamar is the fact that his weapons have been subpar and he has been stuck in the Roman times with his OC? To me it seems odd to argue the excuses why someone has not shown the ability to do something versus giving proof that they can. To each their own, as we will never know what happens to Lamar if he had Reid from the beginning. I am just judging on the reality of what has happened so far in his career and am less concerned about the excuses of why certain things have not happened, especially when we have had a five year period to evaluate. I have not seen it with Lamar and therefore I would be hesitant to invest a heavy contract in the guy “hoping” he can become what I need him to be. IMO those types of contracts are for players that have proven abilities that I want from their position. We know he is a dynamic runner and outstanding playmaker with his legs. But he has not consistently performed well enough through the air, has only played 12 games in each of the last two years, and does not have a great performance history in the post season. Wish him well but he is a pass if he wants top 5 money in my eyes.
Disclaimer: I am not a GM and have been wrong before.
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
They don't.
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Jeff-LJ-Lloyd
@Jeff_LJ_Lloyd
Somebody get Lamar the hell up on outta there
Matt Harmon @MattHarmon_BYB
Are you on your 3rd, 4th or 5th team? Excellent. Is your best season a distant memory?
Perfect.
Oh you're one good sneeze away from your 30s?
Buddy, you ARE a Raven
Kevin Oestreicher@koestreicher34
Current Ravens wide receiver room - Nelson Agholor - Rashod Bateman - Shemar Bridges - Devin Duvernay - Andy Isabella - James Proche II - Mike Thomas - Tylan Wallace
Chaka
Footballguy
Everytime anyone mentions the fact that he has shown that ability it gets shut down with other excuses.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
I am just judging based on what I have seen over the last five years. I am not saying he cannot, but I have not seen enough to warrant throwing large amounts of money at him especially when he has not been available over 25% of the time over the last two seasons. That makes me nervous in itself for a guy who relies on his legs to produce yardage as much as he has. Again, with the right offense and a creative scheme I think he certainly can be a weapon. It will be very interesting to see what the resolution ends up being and how he performs if he lands on a new team.
Chaka
Footballguy
I am not talking about the money or the excuses for why he is a risk while similar players are not. I understand the position. It has been litigated in here ad infinitum.
I am curious about the perception of him as a QB.
Although that, too has been discussed here ad infinitum and results in predictable responses.
IMO what is happening with Lamar and his contract has nothing to do with his ability as a player.
massraider
Footballguy
You are speaking with someone who thinks the Ravens do not want to sign him to a long term deal.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Sorry I missed that and babbled on at length then. It will be interesting to see what happens. If the Ravens want to sign him they will, if they do not he will end up playing another team. Time will tell on those.
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
Looks like a shake weight with speakers.
This seaon and next... lower. Beyond a couple years, pretty high imo.
Catbird
Footballguy
I think a huge thing, mentioned but not emphasized as it should be, is that having drafted Lamar, the Ravens consciously decided to throw out the normal NFL game plan and put their efforts into defense and forcing low scoring games with a punishing, ground oriented offense. It is often talked about that great coaches tailor their game plan to their players - the Ravens are one example, for better or for worse.
I think Lamar's numbers would be markedly better if he had played under Reid, or most NFL coaches and offensive strategies - and that is by Raven plan and design. I think Bateman is a top 15 or 20 receiver in talent, but injuries and team strategy have so far obscured that. I don't doubt that Lamar may be at his personal best in the kind of offense the Ravens run. I don't know how much better or worse he would be in a normal, score as much as you can as fast as you can NFL offense.
I think other teams considering trading for Lamar, at his cost, with an injury history that might says playing this game might very well will shorten his effective career, have to also be thinking that if this is Lamar at his best, they will have to re-structure their entire offense to this kind of game or risk putting him into a model where he is less effective. That has to look like a risky and expensive transition to an offensive strategy that even with the Ravens wholeheartedly adopting it, hasn't proven itself to be all that effective.
I think Lamar's numbers would be markedly better if he had played under Reid, or most NFL coaches and offensive strategies - and that is by Raven plan and design. I think Bateman is a top 15 or 20 receiver in talent, but injuries and team strategy have so far obscured that. I don't doubt that Lamar may be at his personal best in the kind of offense the Ravens run. I don't know how much better or worse he would be in a normal, score as much as you can as fast as you can NFL offense.
I think other teams considering trading for Lamar, at his cost, with an injury history that might says playing this game might very well will shorten his effective career, have to also be thinking that if this is Lamar at his best, they will have to re-structure their entire offense to this kind of game or risk putting him into a model where he is less effective. That has to look like a risky and expensive transition to an offensive strategy that even with the Ravens wholeheartedly adopting it, hasn't proven itself to be all that effective.
That's not what he said, more like he thinks they don't want to sign him to a huge long term deal.
I have no idea how people can think his ability isn't a factor in this. Of course it is.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I don't know what defines "better," but the Ravens are 45-16 (.738) in the regular season when Lamar starts. I'll take the under on any of the incoming class of rookie QB doing better that in their first 5 seasons. Jackson may not win that much moving forward, but that's what he's done so far. Yeah, I get it, he also is trying to fit a square peg in a round hole and may not fit the scheme and system of many other teams. But an effective HC and creative OC should be able to work with Lamar's strengths and build an effective offense around him.
how huge guarantee contracts work
Ken Griffey Jr., Who Hasn't Played Baseball Since 2010, Is The Reds' Third Highest Paid Player This Season
The Cincinnati Reds third highest paid player this season is 56-year-old retired Hall of Famer Ken Griffey Jr.
www.outkick.com
Well, Ken Griffey Jr. – who retired in 2010 is being paid more than nearly everyone else on the team.
Yes, that’s right – the Reds, taking a page out of the Mets and Bobby Bonilla’s playbook, are paying Griffey $3.6 million this year – which astounishingly is the THIRD highest payroll on the team.
massraider
Footballguy
I quoted what he said. Anyone who signs Lamar has to sign him to a huge deal.
Yes - easy bet he is better than any of these draft picks this year and maybe next. Beyond that I wouldn't bet on it. Already missing large chunks of seasons.
Yes you did, and he very clearly didn't say that he thinks the Ravens don't want to sign him to a long term deal.
massraider
Footballguy
I agree. I think that's an unusual position, as the Ravens have made it clear they want him back, and the rest of the NFL seems to believe the Ravens will match any offer.
So, I think he is wrong.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
I put a bunch of bricks in an old radio flyer wagon and just drag it out into the yard. :flex:
Chaka
Footballguy
2019 apparently.
3 seasons ago, yes. He's only 26 too so....
ETA: apologies, I know you and I already discussed this (ad nauseam), I couldn't help it.
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King of the Jungle
Footballguy
Averaged just over 200 yards a game. Case closed
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Jack Duffin
@JackDuffin
If you’re a top 16 QB & get a second contract it’s effectively fully guaranteed at signing
Yenrub
Footballguy
It’s been said that Bobby Petrino ran a pro-style offense with Lamar at Louisville – he was pretty successful in said system.
He has only really been under one OC in the NFL, Greg Roman. Roman is a good OC but he ain’t Air Coryell. He specializes in the run game.
Roman has 9 complete seasons as an OC (he was fired early in one season).
He had never had a Top 10 passing offense and only finished in the top half of the league in passing offense 3 times.
The other 6 years his passing offense ranked 23rd or worse.
cdclopper
Footballguy
There's an obvious difference.
Chaka
Footballguy
The only one I feel has validity is Allen is a significantly bigger dude. 3-4 inches and however many pounds, and I see how that makes the perception of Allen "safer", heck it makes me like Allen more. But, IMO they have a very similar game. They just operate within the constraints of their different schemes.
The Vick comparison is nonsense, Lamar is worlds better as a passer.
The Cam Newton comparis fits Allen as much, if not more, than Jackson.
cdclopper
Footballguy
I was being cheeky btw.
Chaka
Footballguy
I thought so, but there are a lot of different, and significant, connotations so I didn't want to assume you were being cheeky.
fatness
Footballguy
Believing he might not be better than [someone] 3 years from is just one more reason the Ravens need to sign Jackson.
fatness
Footballguy
I think those are the main reasons, yeah.
He was pretty successful, just like in the NFL primarily due to his running ability. He had 57% career completion percentage in that "pro-style offense" in college.
There's no doubt that Roman runs a specific style offense, and it's tailored to his QB's strengths. Just like the Ravens have built the team around his strengths.
Obviously if the Ravens loaded up with stud WRs and brought in a pass happy OC Lamar's passing numbers would be better (very debatable whether that would make the team better). And no one is saying that Lamar can't improve as a passer. But anyone who thinks he's a very good passer right now either doesn't watch him play or is delusional (or both).
Bracie Smathers
Footballguy
Brent Sobleski
@brentsobleski
This can still be found among Jim Irsay's liked tweets.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
LINK to screen capture of liked tweet
"...the COLTS have naturally been discussed as a natural candidate for a deal with Jackson."
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Sure, Lamar isn’t going to lead the league in passing yards, but that doesn’t mean he is a terrible passer. Of active QB, he ranks 10th in career QB rating and 11th in YPA. IMO, in a more pass friendly offense with some better weapons, he would be just fine and his passing numbers would go up.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
I tend to think his passing efficiency is directly related to his running ability.
Definitely agree they should sign him.... for 3 years.
Chaka
Footballguy
And?
I doubt the defensive concerns of his running ability are going to disappear in a new offense.
Greg Roman isn't the only person who runs an offense designed for a mobile QB.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Lamar could still benefit from passing more . . . that wouldn't negate the threat of him running (which is what opens up passing lanes). In his MVP season, the league average was 57.2% passing attempts. The Ravens passed the ball 42.5% of the time (and led the league in scoring by over 50 points on the season). I don't see any reason why the Ravens couldn't have close to a 50/50 pass to run ratio. That would translate to another 75-100 passing attempts on the season (and they could still be a bottom 5 team in passing attempts). That could easily bump Lamar's passing yardage by 500-750 yards . . . and he might not have to sacrifice a ton of rushing attempts in the process. Probably a few designed runs, but he could still scramble and gallop for yards like he does now.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Maybe I missed something. I thought we were talking about what happens when he loses a step running.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
There are multiple discussions and scenarios going on. Even if he loses a step running, does that mean he will stop running? Wouldn't a change to a more traditional (ie, more passing) style offense get him to throw the ball more? Some people are saying a team shouldn't sign him, others are saying he isn't worth the contract he's demanding, while others still are speculating when he won't be worth it because he won't be effective running OR passing. Not sure there is a defined, singular discussion point going on at the moment.
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