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Official Cowboys Offseason Thread. 4th pick overall (1 Viewer)

humpback said:
Perhaps "specific" wasn't clear, but is there a reason you aren't answering the question?  What kind of numbers do you think Zeke would have had in that offense last year, what do you think their record would have been with him, and would they have made the playoffs?

IMO you're putting way too much of the blame for last season on the RB.  McFadden was 4th in the NFL in rushing 1st downs last year too- again, how many more would Zeke have had, and how much of a difference would it have made?  Last season was all about the QB play (due to injuries), not the RB play.  That doesn't mean Zeke won't help some, but it's silly to think he would have made a huge difference.

I agree there is value in both players, but just about everyone else in the NFL agrees that RBs have less value than just about any other position.
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I agree with the comment on RB value except when you can get a potentially elite back.  Like I said in my previous post.  Ramsey was probably the smarter pick.  I just don't think the Zeke pick was as bad as I initially thought it would be.  I'm happy with the direction the team has taken in the draft the last 3 seasons so I'm going to trust that they made the right choice.  I like the pick.  I would have liked Ramsey as well.  Just thank God it wasn't Bosa.

 
humpback said:
Perhaps "specific" wasn't clear, but is there a reason you aren't answering the question?  What kind of numbers do you think Zeke would have had in that offense last year, what do you think their record would have been with him, and would they have made the playoffs?

IMO you're putting way too much of the blame for last season on the RB.  McFadden was 4th in the NFL in rushing 1st downs last year too- again, how many more would Zeke have had, and how much of a difference would it have made?  Last season was all about the QB play (due to injuries), not the RB play.  That doesn't mean Zeke won't help some, but it's silly to think he would have made a huge difference.

I agree there is value in both players, but just about everyone else in the NFL agrees that RBs have less value than just about any other position.
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Oh ... and sorry ... didn't mean to skirt the question.  

Do I think they would have made the playoffs with Zeke?  Hmmmm ... very close.  I say no but not by much.

What numbers do I think Zeke would have had last year in that offense?  I think a little better than McFadden at a minimum.  And his numbers would have been much more significant than alot of the yards McFadden got on draw plays and screens late.

I totally understand your point though.  The point of my argument was simply that I'm not so sure our defense is as bad as it looked on paper and if we were able to squeeze out a few more first downs per game, that could have completely changed things in some of these games.

 
Tyrion said:
It is all going to come down to if Elliot is a dominant running back talent or not. If he is then it was a great pick.  If he isn't then it wasn't.  They obviously thought he was head and shoulders above what they have at the position.  Any Cornerback who's name isn't Deon Sanders isn't going to come in here and transform our defense, especially if we can't generate a pass rush which given the state of our Defensive Ends during at least the first 4 games and probably a few games after that will not be good.  An offense that can convert on 3rd downs, wear down the opponent's defense most importantly put points on the board will definitely change our team.  Our team just wasn't the same last year even though on paper our defense was better than it was in 2014 and I am counting the few games that Tony Romo was healthy. We do well when we can impose our will with our offensive line and our running game.  If we can do that this year we will be good.  If not then it won't matter.

I have no problems taking a swing on Smith in the 2nd round given his talent level.  The team obviously thinks they have the inside track when it comes to knowledge of the injury given that their team doctor performed the surgery and once he comes back  the injury is not one that should bother him in the future or limit his career like Jacks's knee injury is reported to do.  

For those who think we should have taken a DE this year with the 2nd round pick instead because Smith most likely won't be able to give us much if anything this season I want you to ask yourself this question.  How much did Randel Gregory gave us last season in his rookie debut?  He was considered by many to be the best pass rusher in the draft but dropped due to concerns about his marijuana use in college.  He did what the vast majority of rookie Defensive Ends do in their rookie year.  Not much.  Demarcus Lawrence who we drafted with the 34 pick the year before did the same thing.  If Smith is the player they believe him to be and he comes back for a full 2017 season, when we will be looking for a replacement for Rolando Mcclain and when Sean Lee (who has always had trouble staying healthy) will be 31 years old, we will be grateful to have him.  
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THIS

 
mikmak8902 said:
Oh ... and sorry ... didn't mean to skirt the question.  

Do I think they would have made the playoffs with Zeke?  Hmmmm ... very close.  I say no but not by much.

What numbers do I think Zeke would have had last year in that offense?  I think a little better than McFadden at a minimum.  And his numbers would have been much more significant than alot of the yards McFadden got on draw plays and screens late.

I totally understand your point though.  The point of my argument was simply that I'm not so sure our defense is as bad as it looked on paper and if we were able to squeeze out a few more first downs per game, that could have completely changed things in some of these games.
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With Zeke, Cowboys would have been about 7-9, 8-8. But if those wins were against the NFC East, that might have won the div last year. 

I see Cowboys at 10-6 which should be enough for the NFC East, barring Romo injury of course.

 
mikmak8902 said:
Oh ... and sorry ... didn't mean to skirt the question.  

Do I think they would have made the playoffs with Zeke?  Hmmmm ... very close.  I say no but not by much.

What numbers do I think Zeke would have had last year in that offense?  I think a little better than McFadden at a minimum.  And his numbers would have been much more significant than alot of the yards McFadden got on draw plays and screens late.

I totally understand your point though.  The point of my argument was simply that I'm not so sure our defense is as bad as it looked on paper and if we were able to squeeze out a few more first downs per game, that could have completely changed things in some of these games.
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They finished with 4 wins and Washington finished with 9.  You would have to think that Zeke would have run for something ridiculous like 7 ypc in order for them to win 4-5 more games with him.  Again, the main reason they stunk last year was because of injuries to Romo and Dez- I don't think they would have made the playoffs with any RB in the NFL last year under those circumstances.

Insein said:
With Zeke, Cowboys would have been about 7-9, 8-8. But if those wins were against the NFC East, that might have won the div last year. 

I see Cowboys at 10-6 which should be enough for the NFC East, barring Romo injury of course.
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The only games against the NFC East that would have mattered were against Washington, and they beat them once without him.  The second game they got stomped and McFadden had a good game, so it's highly unlikely that they would have won that one with Zeke.  Even at 8-8, which is highly unlikely, they would have come up short without the Washington win.

 
humpback said:
They finished with 4 wins and Washington finished with 9.  You would have to think that Zeke would have run for something ridiculous like 7 ypc in order for them to win 4-5 more games with him.  Again, the main reason they stunk last year was because of injuries to Romo and Dez- I don't think they would have made the playoffs with any RB in the NFL last year under those circumstances.

The only games against the NFC East that would have mattered were against Washington, and they beat them once without him.  The second game they got stomped and McFadden had a good game, so it's highly unlikely that they would have won that one with Zeke.  Even at 8-8, which is highly unlikely, they would have come up short without the Washington win.
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They would have beat the Eagles with a more sustained running game. They almost won as is.

 
Insein said:
humpback said:
They finished with 4 wins and Washington finished with 9.  You would have to think that Zeke would have run for something ridiculous like 7 ypc in order for them to win 4-5 more games with him.  Again, the main reason they stunk last year was because of injuries to Romo and Dez- I don't think they would have made the playoffs with any RB in the NFL last year under those circumstances.

The only games against the NFC East that would have mattered were against Washington, and they beat them once without him.  The second game they got stomped and McFadden had a good game, so it's highly unlikely that they would have won that one with Zeke.  Even at 8-8, which is highly unlikely, they would have come up short without the Washington win.
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They would have beat the Eagles with a more sustained running game. They almost won as is.
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That's far from a guarantee considering McFadden had 117 yds., they had a season high for 3rd and 4th down conversions and dominated time of possession, but for the sake of argument give them that win- how does that change the fact that Washington won 9 games last year so your hypothetical 7 or 8 wins wouldn't have made the playoffs?

 
humpback said:
That's far from a guarantee considering McFadden had 117 yds., they had a season high for 3rd and 4th down conversions and dominated time of possession, but for the sake of argument give them that win- how does that change the fact that Washington won 9 games last year so your hypothetical 7 or 8 wins wouldn't have made the playoffs?
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I was including another win over Wash.

 
Insein said:
I was including another win over Wash.
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Washington crushed Dallas in the second game, Cousins didn't even finish the 1st half, and McFadden had a very good game (7.7 ypc, 145 total yards).  They weren't winning that game with Zeke, but if we want to pretend that they would have, you said 7-9 or 8-8 may have won the division.  7-9 definitely would not have, and 8-8 only would have if they beat Washington- the other NFC East games were no more important than any other game.

I like Zeke, but IMO it's delusional to think he would have won them enough games to make the playoffs last year with the injuries they had.

 
humpback said:
Washington crushed Dallas in the second game, Cousins didn't even finish the 1st half, and McFadden had a very good game (7.7 ypc, 145 total yards).  They weren't winning that game with Zeke, but if we want to pretend that they would have, you said 7-9 or 8-8 may have won the division.  7-9 definitely would not have, and 8-8 only would have if they beat Washington- the other NFC East games were no more important than any other game.

I like Zeke, but IMO it's delusional to think he would have won them enough games to make the playoffs last year with the injuries they had.
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Fair enough.

 
Insein said:
With Zeke, Cowboys would have been about 7-9, 8-8. But if those wins were against the NFC East, that might have won the div last year. 

I see Cowboys at 10-6 which should be enough for the NFC East, barring Romo injury of course.
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OH ... that's right ... great point!  Not sure how I forgot about that.  I'd like to change my answer to YES.  The cowboys definitely would have made the playoffs.  The east was so bad last year that could have happened easily.

 
humpback said:
They finished with 4 wins and Washington finished with 9.  You would have to think that Zeke would have run for something ridiculous like 7 ypc in order for them to win 4-5 more games with him.  Again, the main reason they stunk last year was because of injuries to Romo and Dez- I don't think they would have made the playoffs with any RB in the NFL last year under those circumstances.

The only games against the NFC East that would have mattered were against Washington, and they beat them once without him.  The second game they got stomped and McFadden had a good game, so it's highly unlikely that they would have won that one with Zeke.  Even at 8-8, which is highly unlikely, they would have come up short without the Washington win.
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As I said before, 7 of their 12 losses were by 7pts or less.  Do I think they could have won 5 of those with Zeke?  Absolutely.

 
mikmak8902 said:
humpback said:
They finished with 4 wins and Washington finished with 9.  You would have to think that Zeke would have run for something ridiculous like 7 ypc in order for them to win 4-5 more games with him.  Again, the main reason they stunk last year was because of injuries to Romo and Dez- I don't think they would have made the playoffs with any RB in the NFL last year under those circumstances.

The only games against the NFC East that would have mattered were against Washington, and they beat them once without him.  The second game they got stomped and McFadden had a good game, so it's highly unlikely that they would have won that one with Zeke.  Even at 8-8, which is highly unlikely, they would have come up short without the Washington win.
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As I said before, 7 of their 12 losses were by 7pts or less.  Do I think they could have won 5 of those with Zeke?  Absolutely.
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I'm not sure if you said it before, but it's wrong- 6 of their losses were by 7 pts. or less, and McFadden had very good games in a few of those.  IMO it's absurd to think that any RB would have led them to 9 wins due to the injuries, especially considering the running game actually did well, but let's just agree to disagree.

 
humpback said:
They finished with 4 wins and Washington finished with 9.  You would have to think that Zeke would have run for something ridiculous like 7 ypc in order for them to win 4-5 more games with him.  Again, the main reason they stunk last year was because of injuries to Romo and Dez- I don't think they would have made the playoffs with any RB in the NFL last year under those circumstances.

The only games against the NFC East that would have mattered were against Washington, and they beat them once without him.  The second game they got stomped and McFadden had a good game, so it's highly unlikely that they would have won that one with Zeke.  Even at 8-8, which is highly unlikely, they would have come up short without the Washington win.
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Why does he need to avg 7ypc?  That's a bit of an exaggeration considering they lost 7 of their 12 games by 7pts or less.  Going from 4.5ypc to 5ypc could have easily made up that difference.  And you can't put any value on the 2nd Washington loss.  That was the last game of the season and they had absolutely nothing to play for.

If you want me to say they wouldn't have made the playoffs last year then fine.  Let's say they wouldn't have.  I'm more concerned with this season.  Ramsey was simply the best corner in this draft.  

Elliot is widely thought to be one of the two best RB prospects to come out of college since Purple Jesus.  Matt Waldman ranks him evenly with Todd Gurley. 

Are you telling me Ramsey was the best cornerback prospect in the last 10yrs? 

Either guy would have been a great pick.  Ramsey for need and Elliot for BPA.  They went BPA.  I'm always ok with that.

 
mikmak8902 said:
Insein said:
With Zeke, Cowboys would have been about 7-9, 8-8. But if those wins were against the NFC East, that might have won the div last year. 

I see Cowboys at 10-6 which should be enough for the NFC East, barring Romo injury of course.
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OH ... that's right ... great point!  Not sure how I forgot about that.  I'd like to change my answer to YES.  The cowboys definitely would have made the playoffs.  The east was so bad last year that could have happened easily.
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Oh, I see, this is  :fishing: .  Carry on...

 
humpback said:
I'm not sure if you said it before, but it's wrong- 6 of their losses were by 7 pts. or less, and McFadden had very good games in a few of those.  IMO it's absurd to think that any RB would have led them to 9 wins due to the injuries, especially considering the running game actually did well, but let's just agree to disagree.
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Yes ... sorry ... you're right ... it was 6 games.  I was thinking Atlanta was within 7 but it was 11.  They scored 24 unanswered points after the defense, once again, ran out of gas.  And the Bills game was a 3pt ball game until Gillislee took it 50yds for a TD with 2 minutes left in the game.

I'm completely fine with agreeing to disagree.  Nothing wrong with that buddy.  Go Cowboys!

 
Another year of no pash rush and leaving our corners out to dry. Then people will complain how they suck and need to be upgraded.

We could win with the DBs we have now, but not without a pass rush.

 
Not saying the defense will be good or anything, but they were ranked 28th in sacks in 2014. This year's team, like that one, will be all about the offense. 

 
And that leaves the Cowboys in a tricky situation. They can keep McClain on the roster and hope he makes an impact in the final stretch of the season when the Cowboys are in the hunt for a playoff spot, or they can cut ties with him now.

Though the Star-Telegram reported that sources said the Cowboys haven't decided yet, Jones doesn't sound like he wants to cut McClain, who forfeited his signing bonus. As the Star-Telegram explained, if the Cowboys release McClain, they won't be able to recover their money.

"The main thing is strategically, [financially], it's not good for us," Jones said, "and he doesn't take up an active spot on the roster [during the season]."

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/jerry-jones-disappointed-in-rolando-mcclain-but-unlikely-to-cut-troubled-lb/

http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2016/7/18/12208708/cowboys-news-jerry-jones-on-rolando-mcclain-such-a-waste-but-still-no-plans-to-cut-him

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Am I missing something? He already forfeited his signing bonus and has a $1,375,000 roster bonus that he won't get if cut (or will he?). Only $750,000 of his contract is guaranteed. And Jerry doesn't want to cut him. Why?  He's already gone for AT LEAST the first 10 games. Come on. It will just put them in a bad situation after the next player gets busted for something. And they won't be able to get rid of them. 

They are fine on salary cap. Besides, I thought Stephen was making all the decisions

 
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The Man With No Name said:
And that leaves the Cowboys in a tricky situation. They can keep McClain on the roster and hope he makes an impact in the final stretch of the season when the Cowboys are in the hunt for a playoff spot, or they can cut ties with him now.

Though the Star-Telegram reported that sources said the Cowboys haven't decided yet, Jones doesn't sound like he wants to cut McClain, who forfeited his signing bonus. As the Star-Telegram explained, if the Cowboys release McClain, they won't be able to recover their money.

"The main thing is strategically, [financially], it's not good for us," Jones said, "and he doesn't take up an active spot on the roster [during the season]."

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/jerry-jones-disappointed-in-rolando-mcclain-but-unlikely-to-cut-troubled-lb/

http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2016/7/18/12208708/cowboys-news-jerry-jones-on-rolando-mcclain-such-a-waste-but-still-no-plans-to-cut-him

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Am I missing something? He already forfeited his signing bonus and has a $1,375,000 roster bonus that he won't get if cut (or will he?). Only $750,000 of his contract is guaranteed. And Jerry doesn't want to cut him. Why?  He's already gone for AT LEAST the first 10 games. Come on. It will just put them in a bad situation after the next player gets busted for something. And they won't be able to get rid of them. 

They are fine on salary cap. Besides, I thought Stephen was making all the decisions
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Why would they cut a guy who they are on the books for and won't take a roster spot for 10 games? 

Mcclain is a dope but there aren't 5 better LBers who can play the MIKE when he is interested. 

Jerry is still the head of the organization and gets to take all the credit but no, he isn't running things solely at his discreason. 

 
What a dumpster fire.  Never knew team can get fined for having too many players on suspension, lol. 

 
Same as every year... Rely on Romo to have to do too much. No pass rush leaving our corners out to dry which will leave them exposed to more injuries. 

I guess the bright side is our pothead dline will be fresh in late November. 

 
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 Kellen Moore out with a broken ankle.  I know he is a little undersized but he knows Scott Lenihan's system and I'm higher on him than most.  Not as a full-time starter but as a very confident back up, something we obviously didn't have last year. It just never ends man. 

 I read they might bring in Nick Foles who I'm not a big fan of is probably a solid back up.

 
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@AdamSchefter 21m21 minutes ago Cowboys Exec VP Stephen Jones told @toddarcher that RB Ezekiel Elliott will miss "some time" with his hamstring injury. 

 
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Anyone have any insight on the whats been happening in camp so far with the backup RBs?  Looking at drafting some deep RBs that could become big if the starter goes down.  Wondering if Zeke goes down, is it the DMC show again or has Morris looked better then him so far?  Or will it be a true split?

 
I am not sure I have been less excited for an upcoming year.

Aside from Zeke, not much to get excited for.  Don't get me wrong, every Sunday I will watch, yell and scream...but my head tells me not to get too pumped.

 
Bankerguy said:
I am not sure I have been less excited for an upcoming year.

Aside from Zeke, not much to get excited for.  Don't get me wrong, every Sunday I will watch, yell and scream...but my head tells me not to get too pumped.
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It's difficult to fathom how, even with a healthy Romo, this defense can stop anything.  Best case scenario is with the soft schedule and Romo taking every snap, this team notches 10 wins.  

But, subtract the number of games Romo misses from that win total, because they won't win any of them.

 
Darius Jackson looks real solid as well. I wonder how they find room for him.  I feel like if Zeke was playing and doing what Jackson has done, people would be feeling happy. 

 
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