Is this some kind of rip-off/scam? (1 Viewer)

[kentric]

My gas boiler is having issues whereby it is shutting off, leaving the house cold.  My house was so cold yesterday that I set the heat at 70.  The thermostat fluctuated between 58 and 65 for the next 24 hours.  Calling in a Plumbing Company, the service tech spent a couple of hours on the system and came to the conclusion that the system is fluctuating and the unit is cutting off so as not to overheat.  He believes the lines are getting clogged.  He recommended that the system be chemically cleaned with the boiler skimmed and the relief valve replaced.  Total cost would be ~$2,000.  When he mentioned the cost I was stunned. 

I live just outside of NYC in NJ in a high-cost area where service costs are generally higher than other places.   I have an old, large house which costs a lot to heat.  House was built in 1891 and is about 3,900 sq. ft.  I have a large gas boiler (Weil Mclain) which is ten years old (he said the boiler should last at least 20 years).

Anyone have any experience of this nature.  The cost seems excessive.  I'll be calling another Plumber in town to get their view and cost estimate.

 

[IrishTwinkie]

came to the conclusion that the system is fluctuating and the unit is cutting off so as not to overheat. 

I have forced hot air, not water, but I was in a similar boat a week or so ago. The furnace wouldn't stay on and the temps were dropping in the house pretty quickly. We have a maintenance program with the company that sold us the furnace. Over the phone the support tech diagnosed that the furnace was throwing an overheat code. He recommended that we replace the filter. Which was odd since I had done that recently (end of summer.) It took a bit but the furnace stabilized at stopped it's short cycle routine. The house came back up to temp and has been fine since.

Don't know if it helps, but I don't think it is completely bunk in your situation. The only thing it cost me was a filter out of the box of filters I got stashed away...

 

[John123]

I have forced hot air, not water, but I was in a similar boat a week or so ago. The furnace wouldn't stay on and the temps were dropping in the house pretty quickly. We have a maintenance program with the company that sold us the furnace. Over the phone the support tech diagnosed that the furnace was throwing an overheat code. He recommended that we replace the filter. Which was odd since I had done that recently (end of summer.) It took a bit but the furnace stabilized at stopped it's short cycle routine. The house came back up to temp and has been fine since.

Don't know if it helps, but I don't think it is completely bunk in your situation. The only thing it cost me was a filter out of the box of filters I got stashed away...

How often do you replace your filter?  I do mine every 1-2 months.  I thought that was the norm.

 

[IrishTwinkie]

I was doing mine every 6months. I’ll say the filter was super ugly this time after about 3 months. I was doing between AC season and heat season. 

 

[gianmarco]

@ChiefD

Although there's a Chiefs game right now, so ...

 

[Steve Tasker]

I am not an expert of any sort on this, so take this with a pound of salt, but I have a similarly old house (though smaller than yours) with a gas steam boiler and I've done my fair share of DIY home maintenance on the boiler over the years.  

Replacing a relief valve alone is not outrageously complicated if you're at least semi-handy and have some basic tools.  I don't usually mess with the gas lines, but the water/steam lines are pretty intuitive.

I've never needed a chemical cleaning or skim.  My basic understanding (again, could be way off) is that the skim is usually only performed on new boilers.  I.e. if you had a problem requiring a skim, your 10-year old boiler probably would've had this problem years ago.  Then again, that guy's the professional, not me.

I've had a similar ongoing problem with my boiler this winter, with the frequent shutoffs, but mine has been due to excess water in the system.  My heating guy is coming out to look at it, there's water getting into the lines from somewhere, either a leak or the automatic water feeder is malfunctioning, something's off, I'm draining multiple gallons of water (think like 12 gallons) out of the system on a weekly basis.  I assume the guy you had assessed the water level, but I will say that the first service tech I had called out did not identify the water level as being a problem.  It took a different tech, one who has more experience on gas steam boilers, to identify the issue.  If your sight glass is full or the water level is way too high, maybe try draining some water out of the system and see if it functions better.  Worth a try.

 

[DallasDMac]

Call another place for a 2nd opinion. If they come up with the same thing, then you know, and can just go with the cheaper place.

 

[kentric]

I am not an expert of any sort on this, so take this with a pound of salt, but I have a similarly old house (though smaller than yours) with a gas steam boiler and I've done my fair share of DIY home maintenance on the boiler over the years.  

Replacing a relief valve alone is not outrageously complicated if you're at least semi-handy and have some basic tools.  I don't usually mess with the gas lines, but the water/steam lines are pretty intuitive.

I've never needed a chemical cleaning or skim.  My basic understanding (again, could be way off) is that the skim is usually only performed on new boilers.  I.e. if you had a problem requiring a skim, your 10-year old boiler probably would've had this problem years ago.  Then again, that guy's the professional, not me.

I've had a similar ongoing problem with my boiler this winter, with the frequent shutoffs, but mine has been due to excess water in the system.  My heating guy is coming out to look at it, there's water getting into the lines from somewhere, either a leak or the automatic water feeder is malfunctioning, something's off, I'm draining multiple gallons of water (think like 12 gallons) out of the system on a weekly basis.  I assume the guy you had assessed the water level, but I will say that the first service tech I had called out did not identify the water level as being a problem.  It took a different tech, one who has more experience on gas steam boilers, to identify the issue.  If your sight glass is full or the water level is way too high, maybe try draining some water out of the system and see if it functions better.  Worth a try.

The guy who looked at it said the water feed was fine.

 

[ghostguy123]

I was doing mine every 6months. I’ll say the filter was super ugly this time after about 3 months. I was doing between AC season and heat season. 

Wow, way too infrequent. Every month or so in the dead of summer/winter and every 2 months the rest of the time.  

Depending on filter type of course.

Otherwise you are gonna need a new furnace way sooner than you would like

 

[IrishTwinkie]

Wow, way too infrequent. Every month or so in the dead of summer/winter and every 2 months the rest of the time.  

Depending on filter type of course.

It is a 5inch filter. The suggested frequency was 9mos to a 1 year. I figure doing it at 6mos I am early. If it was running with a 1-2 inch filter, I'd agree. 

ETA: I'll ask the tech when he shows up for the next service. 

 

[ghostguy123]

It is a 5inch filter. The suggested frequency was 9mos to a 1 year. I figure doing it at 6mos I am early. If it was running with a 1-2 inch filter, I'd agree. 

ETA: I'll ask the tech when he shows up for the next service. 

Gotcha.  Was thinking 1 inch filter.

Odd then that changing the filter actually worked

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

It is a 5inch filter. The suggested frequency was 9mos to a 1 year. I figure doing it at 6mos I am early. If it was running with a 1-2 inch filter, I'd agree. 

ETA: I'll ask the tech when he shows up for the next service. 

Sounds like the filter is too restrictive and not getting enough airflow through. Also make sure your intake/returns are not blocked. If it’s a newer home you likely just have one huge intake not far from the system. If it’s an older home you may have one in every room. Make sure they're not obstructed by a couch or something. 

 

[ChiefD]

My gas boiler is having issues whereby it is shutting off, leaving the house cold.  My house was so cold yesterday that I set the heat at 70.  The thermostat fluctuated between 58 and 65 for the next 24 hours.  Calling in a Plumbing Company, the service tech spent a couple of hours on the system and came to the conclusion that the system is fluctuating and the unit is cutting off so as not to overheat.  He believes the lines are getting clogged.  He recommended that the system be chemically cleaned with the boiler skimmed and the relief valve replaced.  Total cost would be ~$2,000.  When he mentioned the cost I was stunned. 

I live just outside of NYC in NJ in a high-cost area where service costs are generally higher than other places.   I have an old, large house which costs a lot to heat.  House was built in 1891 and is about 3,900 sq. ft.  I have a large gas boiler (Weil Mclain) which is ten years old (he said the boiler should last at least 20 years).

Anyone have any experience of this nature.  The cost seems excessive.  I'll be calling another Plumber in town to get their view and cost estimate.

@ChiefD

Although there's a Chiefs game right now, so ...

Boilers are one thing we don't do - we just don't have that many around here any more.

The only thing I would say is it shouldn't take a couple of hours to make a diagnosis. Most good techs can diagnose a problem within the first hour. I would call someone else. Don't tell them someone else already came out.

See what diagnosis they come up with on their own.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Don't know anything about your specific boiler, but I had an issue with a closed loop glycol system where there was some buildup. I flushed it several times(with a cleaner), replaced the glycol and it worked no problem after. I was having the same problem as you where it would shut itself down.

So not the same, but perhaps there is merit to his thoughts. 

 

[wilked]

I have a single pipe system (gas boiler). A couple things. 
 

1. have you been blowing it down regularly? You should be taking a couple gallons out of it at least monthly. When it heats (boils) pure steam goes up the radiators. Some of the steam escapes the radiators which is why you need to add makeup water now and again. What accumulates tho is the ions / sediment / etc from the water, which is why you need to blow it down with one (or both) drain valves into a bucket. 
 

2. the relief valve has nothing to do w your symptoms. It is only there to keep the unit from blowing up if something weird is going on. It might not be a bad idea to replace after 10 years, but that it independent of your issues. 
 

3. have you sat there and watched the unit? Take 30-60 mins and hang out w a beer. Up your thermostat, and you should see the thermostat call for heat. You should see/ hear the boiler come on, the burners fire, etc. watch and observe and you may witness some symptoms that will help diagnose 

 

[kentric]

Boilers are one thing we don't do - we just don't have that many around here any more.

The only thing I would say is it shouldn't take a couple of hours to make a diagnosis. Most good techs can diagnose a problem within the first hour. I would call someone else. Don't tell them someone else already came out.

See what diagnosis they come up with on their own.

He spent most of his going through each radiator to see how the steam was going through them.  On one the air valve wasn't working but the final conclusion was that the system should be cleaned out.  

 

[SWC]

i swear to god there should be a chief batsignal or something we can all agree to around here except chief is a good guy while batman is a pile of puke who would get the hell beat out of him by any reputable superhero sorry just needed to get that off my chest about batnerd take that to the bank bromigos 

 

[fred_1_15301]

I was having the same problem last night, changed the filter (which was completely covered in dirt) and that apparently resolved the issue.

 

[wilked]

One point that I think is important to make here - there is no filter on a boiler. 

 

[kentric]

One point that I think is important to make here - there is no filter on a boiler. 

I couldn't find the owner's manual and was looking online for information.  Went down to the boiler and tried to find the filter.  You're right, couldn't find one. lol

 

[IrishTwinkie]

One point that I think is important to make here - there is no filter on a boiler. 

LOL. I DID preface that I had forced hot air and not water... I was just trying to say a short cycle due to overheating isn't totally fabricated! I'd hope there wasn't an air filter in a hot water system. heh.

And to whoever replied about my filter/vents, nothing has changed in some time. 35+ year old house, no awesome furniture make overs or anything that should change the airflow. So it was weird. But so far the tech has been right on. Cold day in the MetroWest this morning, and the house was fine. 

 

[Soulfly3]

re: filters.... been told by several hvac friends to use the semi cheap-o filters and change monthly... the higher the merv,  the harder your furnace has to work. this causes more bad than good (including the "overheating" issues)...

 

[ChiefD]

LOL. I DID preface that I had forced hot air and not water... I was just trying to say a short cycle due to overheating isn't totally fabricated! I'd hope there wasn't an air filter in a hot water system. heh.

And to whoever replied about my filter/vents, nothing has changed in some time. 35+ year old house, no awesome furniture make overs or anything that should change the airflow. So it was weird. But so far the tech has been right on. Cold day in the MetroWest this morning, and the house was fine. 

So, we’ve seen this a lot lately. A couple quick questions:

1. Do you know how old your furnace is?

2. Do you know if it’s a single stage or two-stage furnace? If you don’t know, send me the model number and I can find out.

Here’s why it matters. In the old days furnaces were single stage. What that means is furnaces operated in one stage - if your furnace was a 100,000 btu furnace, when it turned on it would fire at 100,000 btu’s. You got heat fast but what we learned was you would have a quick heat up but then a quick cool down. Consequently your furnace would cycle on and off ALOT, which wastes a ton of fuel and doesn’t really make your house comfortable. On top of that furnaces were WAY oversized, so in reality your house probably only needed about 50,000 btu’s of heat. Terribly inefficient and not all that comfortable.

So the two stage gas valve was invented. What it does is the furnace fires in two stages. In stage one your furnace would fire at 50,000 btu’s. After about 15 minutes or so, if the thermostat wasn’t satisfied it would then fire in second stage, which would activate the remaining 50,000 btu’s and satisfy the stat. This accomplished two things:

1. Used way less fuel, because in a lot of climates 50k of btu’s will satisfy that stat in 15 minutes.

2. On colder days, it actually increase your run time because your furnace runs longer to satisfy that stat vs blasting 100k of btu’s. This actually makes you more comfortable because the longer the furnace run the more it circulates air. Air Circulation = Comfort.

The downside to this is that when a furnace runs in first stage for a long time, it actually creates build up in your heat exchanger. Which is the most important part of your furnace. And when you have build up in your heat exchanger, your furnace is more restrictive, which in turn triggers your pressure switch (a safety device) which then shuts off your furnace.

So a filter that in the past didn’t seem as dirty as before can be another restriction. When you add up these restrictions it can cause that pressure switch to trip and turn off your furnace.

Let me know about the two questions from above and I’ll check your equipment. Also, let me know what city you are in. Climate can play a role in how your furnace operates.

 

[kentric]

So, we’ve seen this a lot lately. A couple quick questions:

1. Do you know how old your furnace is?     10 years

2. Do you know if it’s a single stage or two-stage furnace? If you don’t know, send me the model number and I can find out.

Not sure on how many stages.  Its a big unit at 225K btu.  Model is: Lennox GS88-225E

 

[ChiefD]

So, we’ve seen this a lot lately. A couple quick questions:

1. Do you know how old your furnace is?     10 years

2. Do you know if it’s a single stage or two-stage furnace? If you don’t know, send me the model number and I can find out.

Not sure on how many stages.  Its a big unit at 225K btu.  Model is: Lennox GS88-225E

Sorry - my apologies. My response was to @IrishTwinkie on his situation. 

My response above would not apply to boilers.

 

[kentric]

Sorry - my apologies. My response was to @IrishTwinkie on his situation. 

My response above would not apply to boilers.

I see that now. lol

 

[SWC]

i am sort of like an old single stage it takes a while for me to start these days and i might shake and rattle but when i get going you can bet your rear end its all 1000000 btus baby take that to the bank 

 

[kentric]

Update: Had another Plumber (local guy) come in.  He said the pressure valve should be cleaned and recommended a chemical flushing as well.  The cost of the chemical flushing is $250 (versus $2K with the original guy).  Hopefully this will address the problem.  He said to never use the people I have been using as they receive a portion of the work done and thus they are economically incentivized to sell a higher cost product. 

Thanks to all who contributed to the topic and cross your fingers for me that this will solve the problem.

 

[ChiefD]

Update: Had another Plumber (local guy) come in.  He said the pressure valve should be cleaned and recommended a chemical flushing as well.  The cost of the chemical flushing is $250 (versus $2K with the original guy).  Hopefully this will address the problem.  He said to never use the people I have been using as they receive a portion of the work done and thus they are economically incentivized to sell a higher cost product. 

Thanks to all who contributed to the topic and cross your fingers for me that this will solve the problem.

Good to hear.

The bolded above is a trend that I absolutely hate in our industry. A large amount of companies are going to this sales technician model where they earn commission on things they "find wrong".

It's a disgusting practice and customers don't know better. Which is why they are doing it. I can't tell you how many times a year I get calls wanting a second opinion because the info they received from another company just didn't feel right.

Or people that replace perfectly fine 10 year old air conditioners because the technician frames the problem in such a way that scares people into thinking they need to replace when all it needs is a $350 repair.

A couple of years ago one of our regular maintenance customers had to call another company for a repair (it was a sub-zero day here in KC and all of our techs were swamped). So she called us back in the spring like she always does and said her air conditioner wouldn't come on. We go over there and the other company had disconnected her low voltage wire coming from her thermostat. Basically to trigger another service call.

I've interviewed techs before who were on a quota where they had to sell $200 a day in "repairs" or they would get fired. It's an awful practice.