Instead of fighting over PPR or non PPR (1 Viewer)

[SWC]

getting open as a receiver is hard so you should get 1 pt. if you do that and catch the ball. If you aren't open and somehow still make a catch its even harder but there is no way to make that quanification so you should still only get 1 pt. to be evenhanded like Hammurabio/

 

[shortbow]

Curious, I only play PPR so our opinions are obviously gonna be different. Why do you have a problem with PPR? Majority of receptions are for first downs regardless so that makes me think is about RBs getting pts for receptions which is equally confusing.

If I had a choice WR 1PPR, RB 1.5PPR and TE 2PPR.

Just seems like an extreme stance to take, if you dont like PPR dont play it, all it does is give values to the players that actually perform. IMO Non-PPR FF is whoever drafts the best RB core.

My issue with it is that a reception has no value to a football team. A 5 yard reception is not any better than 5 yard carry, so why reward someone like Reggie Bush who is more apt to get a 5 yard catch vs Micheal Turner who is far more likely to get a 5 yard run. (wow, didn't think I'd be an ATL player advocate)

Alright, I do have to disagree with you though, a reception isnt the same thing as a hand off regardless of how productive it is. It is infinitely easier to be handed a ball than it is to catch a shovel pass or bubble screen.What my leagues have done is vote on what we want until there is a consensus, doing this we've come to 1PPR for all receptions, and 0.2 Points Per Carry, this is a round about way IMO to solve your problem, Catch a ball behind the Line of scrimage you get 1 Point + the negative yards, so you get 0.5-0.8 pts, but if you run the ball for zero yards you get 0.2 pts.

It escalates your overall pts scored but when it does that for everybody its more than fair.

 

[Liquid Tension]

[whine/]

But if my guy gets a 9 yard carry, and some other guy falls forward for 1 yard, it's the same amount of points. It's not fair [whine]

Find a scoring system you dig, and go with it. There's no perfect system, and whiny DBags will always point out some absurd convoluted scenario where scrubs become artificially valuable.

I am always mildly amused by the anti-PPR contingent, that apparently thinks there are dozens of backs collecting countless 1 yard receptions every week.

You miss the point on the bolded part. It is the fact that a shovel pass or the WR screen gets points for nothing and also it is the yards that matter not the reception and you are already rewarding for the yards so why inflate for a recpetion...in fact, if you really want to reward receivers you would be smarter to give them more for every yard they receive at it then values it better.

You miss the point of the line above the bolded part. You can make a similar argument for any sort of scoring system beyond TD-only. Before fractional points, people would get the same points for 10 yards or 19 yards. And that wasn't fair, but everyone was playing the same scoring system. I like being able to build a team with WRs if you choose, and that just seems easier in a PPR. Maybe it's not, I don't know really. But I enjoy the extra strategy, and it has never really occurred to me to adjust because of catches that are negative. Just seems to me that most catches are good things. And the number of ones that ARE negative isn't big enough to matter. I mean, shovel passes?? How many of these have we had this year? Four? Five? None??

Shovel passes happen every week... That being said, fee free to enjoy what you like, that is the beauty

 

[Liquid Tension]

Curious, I only play PPR so our opinions are obviously gonna be different. Why do you have a problem with PPR? Majority of receptions are for first downs regardless so that makes me think is about RBs getting pts for receptions which is equally confusing.If I had a choice WR 1PPR, RB 1.5PPR and TE 2PPR.Just seems like an extreme stance to take, if you dont like PPR dont play it, all it does is give values to the players that actually perform. IMO Non-PPR FF is whoever drafts the best RB core.

Actually, that is not the case in all the leagues I have played in. It could be any position carrying a team. A few years ago it was teh Brady year, last year CJ was the man, this year Gates is the man. In our league the guy with the 3 best receivers won last year? It all depends on the types of years people are having.I surely would noty give so many points for an artifical stat like catches. Just go ahead and give more yards because catches by themelves don't mean anything so why reward a RB who has 6 catches for 20 with 11 points and make that the same as 110 yards rushing? Just is totally out of whack

 

[Liquid Tension]

MFL and CBS both support scoring for first down receptions, though MFL has a disclaimer about not updating live scoring. Sportsline does update its live scoring to a degree -- they can handle the routine first down plays but they go back and add in points for TDs later, which are also first downs officially.My main league uses PPFDR exclusively in lieu of any other kind of PPR system, thanks largely to Jeff Pasquino's article cited above. It's just about perfect.

So a TD is considered a 1st down? That is odd

 

[Liquid Tension]

I think PPR make ssense because you have to get open to catch a pass which should be rewarded itself by 1 point but a RB doesn't have to get open because they just get handed the ball and so there should not be a point per rush given which would, in anyhow, make a lot fo feature backs get 20 points just for showing up which would be unfair.In short, I support PPR and do no support those who are opposed.I approved this message.

So a 5 yard catch is worth 15 yards rushing? The logic falls short to me. I do agree you could argue you have to get open, but you could argue that the guy carrying the ball has 5-6 guy at the LOS ready to kill him before he gaines a yard. I think the yards are enough, but again, to each is own

 

[Liquid Tension]

There's no right or wrong way to score fantasy football. Every scoring system ever invented has "flaws."My local league, in its third decade now, has awarded 6 points for rushing TDs, but only 3 points for passing and receiving TDs. I think one year someone had Bobby Hebert and Andre Rison or something, and everyone complained that he was getting "double" points for every TD pass from one to the other. I've pointed out how stupid this is on many occasions but the rule has been in place ever since. But you know what? I like the guys in the league, even if they're not the brightest bunch, and the rules are the same for everyone, so that's really all that matters. If you want to award points for first downs, or receptions, or penalties drawn, or the number of pink items worn during Breast Cancer Awareness Month, no one can say one way is better than any other. As long as you have 9-11 other guys who also want to play in that scoring system, go with it. Don't try to convince anyone else that it's "better" than any other system, and don't let anyone else convince you it's "worse," because it's neither.

The key here is that everyone in the league agrees and thus it is fair to everyone

 

[Liquid Tension]

I've never quite understood this push, and it pops up 2 or 3 times a year in the Shark Pool.While the logic behind PPFD is based on logical premise, it is, in the end, every bit as flawed as the PPR it's intended to "fix".SUddenly, a six yard reception on 2nd and 5 is worth the same as a 16 yard catch on 1st and 20? How is THAT any different than a RB catching a 1 yard outlet pass being the same as a 11 yard run?How about when that outlet pass saves his QB from a sack that would have been a loss of 7?In the end, any system you can devise will have situations where the rewarded points don't align with the real NFL value. You can't fix it, no matter how hard you try. SO instead of trying to fix it, stick with metrics and measurements that are easy to follow, and relatively easy to predict.PPFD is becoming easy to follow, but I'm not so sure they will EVER be remotely easy to predict. Any small advantage gained in "reasonable value relative to NFL value" (which is arguable) is more than lost in relative predictability.

Another good post. I do think that any time you can get a new set of downs though that is very important. Not as big, but being able to get into the end zone is always important. The situation gaining 16 yards on 1st and 20 is important too (and a good example I might add) but if that is the worse flaw that is a heck of a lot better than PPR. Honestly, maybe I would only reward 1/2 a point for a 1st down, just enough to give a little extra...I haven't thought it through yet, but maybe 1 point is too much? As for predictability...TD's are hard to predict too and we give them the highest point score?

 

[roadkill1292]

When my league decided that it wanted to beef up receiving scoring a little bit, we might have been influenced to choose PPFDR over a straight PPR from watching the Brian Billick offense here in Baltimore. The Ravens under Billick were masters of the 3-yard completion on third-and-five and we couldn't stomach rewarding anyone for that.

As far as predictability goes, I would guess that first down receptions generally follow overall receptions pretty closely. But I don't know this for sure.

 

[SWC]

I think PPR make ssense because you have to get open to catch a pass which should be rewarded itself by 1 point but a RB doesn't have to get open because they just get handed the ball and so there should not be a point per rush given which would, in anyhow, make a lot fo feature backs get 20 points just for showing up which would be unfair.In short, I support PPR and do no support those who are opposed.I approved this message.

So a 5 yard catch is worth 15 yards rushing? The logic falls short to me. I do agree you could argue you have to get open, but you could argue that the guy carrying the ball has 5-6 guy at the LOS ready to kill him before he gaines a yard. I think the yards are enough, but again, to each is own

the back has those guys waiting to shake his hand you are right about that sir but he doesn't have to generally get open to take a handoff he just has to run up and not drop the ball but a wide receiver doesn't have the luxury especially if a guy like Al Harris or Dontrelle Revis is putting the clampers down on him so I woudl still say getting open is worth a point also recievers are targeted a lot less than backs normally uneless you ahve a coach who likes RBCB and just won't commit to one feature back so it makes sense from a Hammurabian even handed approach to try to even out the point distribution between WRs and non RBBC backs and in the case of RBBC backs you should just draft someone else.

 

[conboy]

In 2 of my leagues we have instituted a point per rushing 1st down and a point per receiving first down. This has worked out quite well and is a nice bonus for your 3rd down back or receiver.

 

[Liquid Tension]

I think PPR make ssense because you have to get open to catch a pass which should be rewarded itself by 1 point but a RB doesn't have to get open because they just get handed the ball and so there should not be a point per rush given which would, in anyhow, make a lot fo feature backs get 20 points just for showing up which would be unfair.In short, I support PPR and do no support those who are opposed.I approved this message.

So a 5 yard catch is worth 15 yards rushing? The logic falls short to me. I do agree you could argue you have to get open, but you could argue that the guy carrying the ball has 5-6 guy at the LOS ready to kill him before he gaines a yard. I think the yards are enough, but again, to each is own

the back has those guys waiting to shake his hand you are right about that sir but he doesn't have to generally get open to take a handoff he just has to run up and not drop the ball but a wide receiver doesn't have the luxury especially if a guy like Al Harris or Dontrelle Revis is putting the clampers down on him so I woudl still say getting open is worth a point also recievers are targeted a lot less than backs normally uneless you ahve a coach who likes RBCB and just won't commit to one feature back so it makes sense from a Hammurabian even handed approach to try to even out the point distribution between WRs and non RBBC backs and in the case of RBBC backs you should just draft someone else.

Except he runs unhindered until he has to make the catch...the RB has people trying to stop him for everyone of those yards

 

[Liquid Tension]

In 2 of my leagues we have instituted a point per rushing 1st down and a point per receiving first down. This has worked out quite well and is a nice bonus for your 3rd down back or receiver.

Are backs too important?

 

[SWC]

I think PPR make ssense because you have to get open to catch a pass which should be rewarded itself by 1 point but a RB doesn't have to get open because they just get handed the ball and so there should not be a point per rush given which would, in anyhow, make a lot fo feature backs get 20 points just for showing up which would be unfair.In short, I support PPR and do no support those who are opposed.I approved this message.

So a 5 yard catch is worth 15 yards rushing? The logic falls short to me. I do agree you could argue you have to get open, but you could argue that the guy carrying the ball has 5-6 guy at the LOS ready to kill him before he gaines a yard. I think the yards are enough, but again, to each is own

the back has those guys waiting to shake his hand you are right about that sir but he doesn't have to generally get open to take a handoff he just has to run up and not drop the ball but a wide receiver doesn't have the luxury especially if a guy like Al Harris or Dontrelle Revis is putting the clampers down on him so I woudl still say getting open is worth a point also recievers are targeted a lot less than backs normally uneless you ahve a coach who likes RBCB and just won't commit to one feature back so it makes sense from a Hammurabian even handed approach to try to even out the point distribution between WRs and non RBBC backs and in the case of RBBC backs you should just draft someone else.

Except he runs unhindered until he has to make the catch...the RB has people trying to stop him for everyone of those yards

so under your theory a RB should get 1 pt for every yard he moves before he gets the handoff?

 

[Mello]

Overall, it doesn't matter because fantasy points have limited correlation to actual football effectiveness. If people wanted to do that, they'd use some metric like Football Outsiders' DYAR that give more credit for successful plays. That would be a very convoluted system that most people wouldn't find enjoyable though.

That said, I've never been a fan of PPR for the obvious reason that many receptions are not helpful to the team and shouldn't be equivalent to 10 or 5 yards of field position. Mostly thinking of screen passes here. I like the idea for a point for first down because it is a stat that can be tracked and is always helpful for the team. Not a big deal though. FF does not approximate real football.

 

[H.K.]

I like the idea for a point for first down because it is a stat that can be tracked and is always helpful for the team.

There are scenarios when they are not, particularly when trailing late.

 

[Liquid Tension]

I think PPR make ssense because you have to get open to catch a pass which should be rewarded itself by 1 point but a RB doesn't have to get open because they just get handed the ball and so there should not be a point per rush given which would, in anyhow, make a lot fo feature backs get 20 points just for showing up which would be unfair.In short, I support PPR and do no support those who are opposed.I approved this message.

So a 5 yard catch is worth 15 yards rushing? The logic falls short to me. I do agree you could argue you have to get open, but you could argue that the guy carrying the ball has 5-6 guy at the LOS ready to kill him before he gaines a yard. I think the yards are enough, but again, to each is own

the back has those guys waiting to shake his hand you are right about that sir but he doesn't have to generally get open to take a handoff he just has to run up and not drop the ball but a wide receiver doesn't have the luxury especially if a guy like Al Harris or Dontrelle Revis is putting the clampers down on him so I woudl still say getting open is worth a point also recievers are targeted a lot less than backs normally uneless you ahve a coach who likes RBCB and just won't commit to one feature back so it makes sense from a Hammurabian even handed approach to try to even out the point distribution between WRs and non RBBC backs and in the case of RBBC backs you should just draft someone else.

Except he runs unhindered until he has to make the catch...the RB has people trying to stop him for everyone of those yards

so under your theory a RB should get 1 pt for every yard he moves before he gets the handoff?

No, he gets .1 points for every positive yard from scrimmage and the same on the negative side

 

[Liquid Tension]

Overall, it doesn't matter because fantasy points have limited correlation to actual football effectiveness. If people wanted to do that, they'd use some metric like Football Outsiders' DYAR that give more credit for successful plays. That would be a very convoluted system that most people wouldn't find enjoyable though. That said, I've never been a fan of PPR for the obvious reason that many receptions are not helpful to the team and shouldn't be equivalent to 10 or 5 yards of field position. Mostly thinking of screen passes here. I like the idea for a point for first down because it is a stat that can be tracked and is always helpful for the team. Not a big deal though. FF does not approximate real football.

My take is similar, but if you can make it a little more like real football, it is worth trying to do as long as it isn't too convoluted to take the enjoyment away.

 

[Liquid Tension]

I like the idea for a point for first down because it is a stat that can be tracked and is always helpful for the team.

There are scenarios when they are not, particularly when trailing late.

HK, your posts are as non helpful as any person on this board...why do you bother posting?Thanks for that 1% time when a team has 10 seconds left and it is 1st and 5 and they throw a 10 yard pass over the middle and the time expires so that the 1st down wasn't helpful.

 

[RhymesMcJuice]

I would support 1 pt. per 1st down reception or 1 PPR for catches of 5+ yards. A 1 yard catch that isn't for a 1st down shouldn't be rewarded in my opinion.

 

[RhymesMcJuice]

In 2 of my leagues we have instituted a point per rushing 1st down and a point per receiving first down. This has worked out quite well and is a nice bonus for your 3rd down back or receiver.

Are backs too important?

I would imagine they would be and sort of defeats the purpose of PPR. PP1st for receiving only makes more sense to me.

 

[H.K.]

I like the idea for a point for first down because it is a stat that can be tracked and is always helpful for the team.

There are scenarios when they are not, particularly when trailing late.

HK, your posts are as non helpful as any person on this board...why do you bother posting?Thanks for that 1% time when a team has 10 seconds left and it is 1st and 5 and they throw a 10 yard pass over the middle and the time expires so that the 1st down wasn't helpful.

Just providing truth to the discussion, obviously it hit a nerve.Watch your tone in the future. Unsolicited personal insults are classless and not tolerated on the boards.