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How To Get To Heaven When You Die (1 Viewer)

Paddington said:
PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS.  IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU COULD EVER DO AND IT ONLY TAKES A FEW MINUTES.

 ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN?

 There are some things that you should know:

 1. Realize that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior:

 Ro 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

 Ro 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

 This all began with the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. God created them perfect, there was no death or sorrow. God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God and as a result, sin entered into the world. The pain which this world sees is the result of sin.

 [SIZE=12pt]2. Because of our sins, we die both spiritually and physically, but God sent His Son to die so that you can have a chance not to have to go to hell by accepting what He did on the cross for you:[/SIZE]

 Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

 Ro 5:8 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. for us."

 Every person who has ever lived is a sinner and is not righteous because we do bad things. A sin is a crime against God, just as if you steal something at the store, it is punishable by going to jail. It's the same thing with sin. Even if we lie one time, the punishment is hell, which is a prison for those who commit crimes against God.  That’s because you must be perfect in order to get to heaven. No matter how well you live your life from then on, you have already committed a sin which will be punished if you are not pardoned. If you commit a crime, and then live as a good citizen you still will go to jail for the crime you committed. Right? Just as the president can pardon a crime so you won't go to jail, Jesus can pardon your sins so that you do not go to hell, and can go to heaven when you die.

 [SIZE=12pt]3. If you will Admit to Jesus Christ that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior, Believe in your heart that He died on the cross and rose from the dead and Accept Him as your Lord and Savior and you will be forgiven and taken to heaven to be with Him when you die.[/SIZE]

 Joh 1:12 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name”

 Ro 10:9,10 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.."

 You cannot get to heaven by being a good person, going to church, baptism or any other way other than by turning to Jesus, believing in your heart that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins and placing your trust in Him. While these are good things to do, some people believe that they will get to heaven if they do these things, but the bible says that there is only one way to heaven and that is through receiving what Jesus Christ did on the cross for you.

 Will you do that today? If you will, you can be 100% sure that you will go to heaven when you die.

 DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD FOR YOUR SINS?

 ARE YOU WILLING TO TURN TO JESUS CHRIST FOR SALVATION?

 4.  Dear friends, Take this moment, If you want to accept Jesus Christ free gift of salvation, Or if you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, pray this from your heart, humbly to God:

"Dear Lord Jesus, I believe and confess that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead for my sins. I now place my faith in You as my Lord. In Jesus holy name, Amen."

 If you have placed your faith in Jesus Christ and meant it with all of your heart, you are now a child of God and will go to heaven. 

 [SIZE=12pt]Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing church and follow in baptism.  [/SIZE]
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Please take the time to read this first post.

 
So I am really having some issues here and I haven't been able to get answers to my questions:

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations.  A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know from Leviticus 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord-Leviticus 1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states that he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Leviticus 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there degrees of abomination?
 

7. Leviticus 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Leviticus 19:27. How should they die?

9. My uncle has a farm. He violates Leviticus 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton-polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Leviticus 24:10-16). Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, as we do with people who sleep with their in-laws (Leviticus 20:14)?

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

 
bro1ncos said:
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
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Except I think it can be changed if he sends a copy of himself down here to Earth so he can sacrifice himself to himself, stay dead for a weekend, and then go back home.  It's kind of a like a reboot that's a little easier on us than another global flood.

 
I'm seeing some very real and compelling evidence of Pele right now.  She is pissed.

 
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bro1ncos said:
So I am really having some issues here and I haven't been able to get answers to my questions:

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations.  A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know from Leviticus 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord-Leviticus 1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states that he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Leviticus 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there degrees of abomination?
 

7. Leviticus 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Leviticus 19:27. How should they die?

9. My uncle has a farm. He violates Leviticus 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton-polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Leviticus 24:10-16). Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, as we do with people who sleep with their in-laws (Leviticus 20:14)?

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
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You’re having some questions?  Or your favorite atheist/anti-bible site did?

 
shader said:
You’re having some questions?  Or your favorite atheist/anti-bible site did?
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I'm full of crap, but the questions are still valid. Which parts of this book are fiction and/or no longer apply today? Why are some parts believed to be concrete facts by some, yet others parts of the book can be ignored? 

 
Paddington said:
PLEASE TAKE THE TIME TO READ THIS.  IT'S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING YOU COULD EVER DO AND IT ONLY TAKES A FEW MINUTES.

 ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN?

 There are some things that you should know:

 1. Realize that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior:

 Ro 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

 Ro 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

 This all began with the story of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. God created them perfect, there was no death or sorrow. God told them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. They disobeyed God and as a result, sin entered into the world. The pain which this world sees is the result of sin.

 [SIZE=12pt]2. Because of our sins, we die both spiritually and physically, but God sent His Son to die so that you can have a chance not to have to go to hell by accepting what He did on the cross for you:[/SIZE]

 Ro 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

 Ro 5:8 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. for us."

 Every person who has ever lived is a sinner and is not righteous because we do bad things. A sin is a crime against God, just as if you steal something at the store, it is punishable by going to jail. It's the same thing with sin. Even if we lie one time, the punishment is hell, which is a prison for those who commit crimes against God.  That’s because you must be perfect in order to get to heaven. No matter how well you live your life from then on, you have already committed a sin which will be punished if you are not pardoned. If you commit a crime, and then live as a good citizen you still will go to jail for the crime you committed. Right? Just as the president can pardon a crime so you won't go to jail, Jesus can pardon your sins so that you do not go to hell, and can go to heaven when you die.

 [SIZE=12pt]3. If you will Admit to Jesus Christ that you are a sinner and in need of a Savior, Believe in your heart that He died on the cross and rose from the dead and Accept Him as your Lord and Savior and you will be forgiven and taken to heaven to be with Him when you die.[/SIZE]

 Joh 1:12 “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name”

 Ro 10:9,10 "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.."

 You cannot get to heaven by being a good person, going to church, baptism or any other way other than by turning to Jesus, believing in your heart that He died on the cross and rose from the dead for your sins and placing your trust in Him. While these are good things to do, some people believe that they will get to heaven if they do these things, but the bible says that there is only one way to heaven and that is through receiving what Jesus Christ did on the cross for you.

 Will you do that today? If you will, you can be 100% sure that you will go to heaven when you die.

 DO YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS CHRIST DIED ON THE CROSS AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD FOR YOUR SINS?

 ARE YOU WILLING TO TURN TO JESUS CHRIST FOR SALVATION?

 4.  Dear friends, Take this moment, If you want to accept Jesus Christ free gift of salvation, Or if you have any doubts about whether or not you are going to heaven, pray this from your heart, humbly to God:

"Dear Lord Jesus, I believe and confess that You are the Lord and believe in my heart that You died on the Cross and Rose from the dead for my sins. I now place my faith in You as my Lord. In Jesus holy name, Amen."

 If you have placed your faith in Jesus Christ and meant it with all of your heart, you are now a child of God and will go to heaven. 

 [SIZE=12pt]Now that you are on your way to heaven, you should attend a bible believing church and follow in baptism.  [/SIZE]
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Please take the time to read this first post if you haven't yet.  

 
So how many gullible hedging dorks do I have to hang out with in heaven?   And, for eternity?   Sounds brutal.  

 
zoonation said:
So how many gullible hedging dorks do I have to hang out with in heaven?   And, for eternity?   Sounds brutal.  
Click to expand...
The same as the number of elves you'll have to hang out with when you return to Valinor.

 
ARE YOU 100% SURE THAT IF YOU DIED TODAY THAT YOU WOULD GO TO HEAVEN?
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I already died and went to heaven.   I am on a cloud right now drinking coffee with a couple of angels as I type this.   

Jesus says keep up the good work Paddy.   Between your words and Joe getting rid of the "Who's Hottest" polls, heaven is going to be filled with FBGers!

 
zoonation said:
So how many gullible hedging dorks do I have to hang out with in heaven?   And, for eternity?   Sounds brutal.  
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It came to a point in my christian life that I realized I didn't want to live for internity with other christians. Seemed like it would be hell.

It wasn't THE reason I stopped being a christian, but it certainly influenced my decision. 

 
Not trying to start a controversy but to the practicing Christians out there I have a question.First let me say I believe in God and Jesus,but chances are if there is a heaven that is not where I am going to end up.So when I was working had a fellow associate who was a devout Christian.He was a pretty nice guy but probably not someone I would ever hang with.Anyway we had a gay guy who worked with us and I could tell the devout Christian did not really like him So I asked him one day why.He said that homosexuality was an abomination in the eyes of the lord and that he had no chance of going to heaven.So I'm thinking to myself why not guy seems very nice and he goes to church.So I give a couple of examples to the religious guy.I ask him if an ax murdering child molester was on his death bed and he genuinely asks for forgiveness and accepts Jesus as his savior will he go to heaven?His answer was yes.My next question was a gay couple who have lived a good life goes to church believes in the lord will they go to heaven? His answer was no.I find this hard to believe.If there is a God how could he possibly do that?

So for the faithful out there could you explain it to me.Again I am not trying to stir up any controversy but would really like to know. Is this a common belief among most church goers

 
rustycolts said:
Not trying to start a controversy but to the practicing Christians out there I have a question.First let me say I believe in God and Jesus,but chances are if there is a heaven that is not where I am going to end up.So when I was working had a fellow associate who was a devout Christian.He was a pretty nice guy but probably not someone I would ever hang with.Anyway we had a gay guy who worked with us and I could tell the devout Christian did not really like him So I asked him one day why.He said that homosexuality was an abomination in the eyes of the lord and that he had no chance of going to heaven.So I'm thinking to myself why not guy seems very nice and he goes to church.So I give a couple of examples to the religious guy.I ask him if an ax murdering child molester was on his death bed and he genuinely asks for forgiveness and accepts Jesus as his savior will he go to heaven?His answer was yes.My next question was a gay couple who have lived a good life goes to church believes in the lord will they go to heaven? His answer was no.I find this hard to believe.If there is a God how could he possibly do that?

So for the faithful out there could you explain it to me.Again I am not trying to stir up any controversy but would really like to know. Is this a common belief among most church goers
Click to expand...
No. 

 
rustycolts said:
Not trying to start a controversy but to the practicing Christians out there I have a question.First let me say I believe in God and Jesus,but chances are if there is a heaven that is not where I am going to end up.So when I was working had a fellow associate who was a devout Christian.He was a pretty nice guy but probably not someone I would ever hang with.Anyway we had a gay guy who worked with us and I could tell the devout Christian did not really like him So I asked him one day why.He said that homosexuality was an abomination in the eyes of the lord and that he had no chance of going to heaven.So I'm thinking to myself why not guy seems very nice and he goes to church.So I give a couple of examples to the religious guy.I ask him if an ax murdering child molester was on his death bed and he genuinely asks for forgiveness and accepts Jesus as his savior will he go to heaven?His answer was yes.My next question was a gay couple who have lived a good life goes to church believes in the lord will they go to heaven? His answer was no.I find this hard to believe.If there is a God how could he possibly do that?

So for the faithful out there could you explain it to me.Again I am not trying to stir up any controversy but would really like to know. Is this a common belief among most church goers
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Religious people have always been hung up on sex more than the other sins. Probably because it's so innate that it's hardest for them to reconcile. 

 
tonydead said:
Religious people have always been hung up on sex more than the other sins. Probably because it's so innate that it's hardest for them to reconcile. 
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Probably because God calls us to be chaste and that's hard to do.  There's other equally difficult sins, and we're equally hung up on those.

 
Psychopav said:
Probably because God calls us to be chaste and that's hard to do.  There's other equally difficult sins, and we're equally hung up on those.
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Weird how Catholic Priest has become synonymous with Pedophile if there are a bunch of other equally difficult sins that they are equally hung up on. 

 
rustycolts said:
Not trying to start a controversy but to the practicing Christians out there I have a question.First let me say I believe in God and Jesus,but chances are if there is a heaven that is not where I am going to end up.So when I was working had a fellow associate who was a devout Christian.He was a pretty nice guy but probably not someone I would ever hang with.Anyway we had a gay guy who worked with us and I could tell the devout Christian did not really like him So I asked him one day why.He said that homosexuality was an abomination in the eyes of the lord and that he had no chance of going to heaven.So I'm thinking to myself why not guy seems very nice and he goes to church.So I give a couple of examples to the religious guy.I ask him if an ax murdering child molester was on his death bed and he genuinely asks for forgiveness and accepts Jesus as his savior will he go to heaven?His answer was yes.My next question was a gay couple who have lived a good life goes to church believes in the lord will they go to heaven? His answer was no.I find this hard to believe.If there is a God how could he possibly do that?

So for the faithful out there could you explain it to me.Again I am not trying to stir up any controversy but would really like to know. Is this a common belief among most church goers
Click to expand...
It's hard to say something is common among christians given all the different denominations are pretty much a result of just how diverse christians are across the board. 

In the christian world I experienced for 30+ years, which was heavily evangelic and somewhat baptist influenced, where we commonly used the words "bible believing" to seperate us from other christians who would pick and chose from the bible what they did and did not believe, the answer to your question is "absolutely yes, it's a common belief among most church goers". That said, there are lots of christians that don't believe that at all, but you pretty much have to either ignore parts of the bible, or implement mental gymnastics, to come to the conclusions that god doesn't hate homosexuals. Because the bible says he does. 

 
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matuski said:
I wonder if man is done making up religions.  Seems it would be tough to pull off these days.
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Religious syncretism was a popular way of inventing new religions around the time of Jesus, especially by those influenced by Hellenism. 

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_syncretism

Syncretism functioned as a feature of Hellenistic Ancient Greek religion, although only outside of Greece. Overall, Hellenistic culture in the age that followed Alexander the Greatitself showed syncretist features, essentially blending of Mesopotamian, Persian, Anatolian, Egyptian (and eventually Etruscan–Roman) elements within an Hellenic formula.
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The first christian writings that were penned to paper were authored by Paul, a Hellenistic Roman Jew. The gospels and other new testament books were written after Paul (many after Paul died) and were likely written by followers of Paul's letters. Given all the pagan elements within christianity (it's actually more pagan than it is jewish), there's a good chance that christianity was just another product of the religious syncretism that was popular at the time. That's not to say that Paul invented christianity. It's pretty clear there were others that started the belief before him. What likely happened is that the jewish sect that was following Jesus, and believed he was anointed by god to be the next King of Israel (the messiah), splintered after he was killed by the Romans and the Jewish sect that would have lost their social status if Jesus became King of Israel. It splintered because people in the sect were looking for answers as to why their messiah was killed. Paul had a ton of reasons to persecute the believers who thought Jesus was coming back to take his place as King of Israel. But the splinter that adopted pagan beliefs that Jesus was a sacrifice for men to obtain salvation not only showed no threat to Paul, he came to join them after hallucinating Jesus, probably after a dinner with some wine and maybe some other things (if you know what I mean). Given his hellenistic background, he jumped all in on this new religious syncretism of judaism with paganism, and the rest is history. If it weren't for Rome adopting christianity as the empire's official religion, the version of christianity Paul jumped into would have died off just like all the other new religions being invented during those centuries... including the jewish christians who believed Jesus had nothing to do with gentiles (non-jews). When Israel ceased to exist as a country, those beliefs just died off. After all, why would Jesus come back to become King of a country that no longer exists. At that point, the only version of christianity that had any chance of surviving was the one that morphed it with pagan beliefs, so that it was no longer about the jews. Then Rome made it what it became. 

 
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Politician Spock said:
It's hard to say something is common among christians given all the different denominations are pretty much a result of just how diverse christians are across the board. 

In the christian world I experienced for 30+ years, which was heavily evangelic and somewhat baptist influenced, where we commonly used the words "bible believing" to seperate us from other christians who would pick and chose from the bible what they did and did not believe, the answer to your question is "absolutely yes, it's a common belief among most church goers". That said, there are lots of christians that don't believe that at all, but you pretty much have to either ignore parts of the bible, or implement mental gymnastics, to come to the conclusions that god doesn't hate homosexuals. Because the bible says he does. 
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Thank you for the explanation.The only thing I can't figure is why.Christianity considers homosexuality a sin.But the whole deal is if you are born again then supposedly you are forgiven of your sins and go to heaven.Why is the only exception homosexuality?

 
Leviticus 20:13 “ ‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.' "

 
rustycolts said:
Thank you for the explanation.The only thing I can't figure is why.Christianity considers homosexuality a sin.But the whole deal is if you are born again then supposedly you are forgiven of your sins and go to heaven.Why is the only exception homosexuality?
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Because they believe (like I believed) that if they were really born again, then they would stop sinning, or at the very least desire to stop it. In their eyes a homosexual who doesn't desire to stop being homosexual isn't really born again. 

 
Psychopav said:
Very perceptive.
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Not really. It's been in the news for decades. The pope comments on it frequently. In January of this year, in the 21st century, he felt the need to declare that he has a zero tolerance policy for this.  It's hard to fathom really. 

 
tonydead said:
Not really. It's been in the news for decades. The pope comments on it frequently. In January of this year, in the 21st century, he felt the need to declare that he has a zero tolerance policy for this.  It's hard to fathom really. 
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Not really. It's unconscionable so zero tolerance is the only policy.

 
tonydead said:
Yeah so the fact he has to keep saying something says something.  Back to my original assertion. 
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It doesn't say anything about hangups.  Unless you're saying that pedophile priests are equally as abhorrent as priests who commit other sins, and the pope should say less about pedophiles.  I don't think that's what you're saying, though.  Is it?

 
Psychopav said:
It doesn't say anything about hangups.  Unless you're saying that pedophile priests are equally as abhorrent as priests who commit other sins, and the pope should say less about pedophiles.  I don't think that's what you're saying, though.  Is it?
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Pedophilia appears to be more of a problem for them.  That's evident by the pope having to continually address it.  Like I said:

tonydead said:
Religious people have always been hung up on sex more than the other sins. Probably because it's so innate that it's hardest for them to reconcile. 
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Do you have examples of sins they are equally hung up on?  Have there been news reports for decades on thieving priests that I might have missed?

 
tonydead said:
Pedophilia appears to be more of a problem for them.  That's evident by the pope having to continually address it.  Like I said:

Do you have examples of sins they are equally hung up on?  Have there been news reports for decades on thieving priests that I might have missed?
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The pope continually addresses it because it is a more abhorrent sin.  You're the one interpreting that as a hangup about sex.  Do you think the pope is more hung up on it because he keeps addressing it, or that the Church is more hung up on it because it keeps happening?  Do you expect it to not happen because it's a Church?  What other sins do you expect to not happen?  Do you think they are more hung up on sex than the general public because the pope abhors pedophilia?  I don't.

They are equally hung up on all seven deadly sins.  What does reporting have to do with the hangups that churchgoers may (or may not) have?  Are you saying that the public's appetite for the salacious - which drives the subject of news reports - is analogous to the Church's hangups?  I am not saying that sex isn't something that all humans are more interested in, in all it's facets.  I'm saying that you really don't prove a point when you say that (a) pedophilia happens among the clergy or (b) the pope condemns it.

 
tonydead said:
Pedophilia appears to be more of a problem for them.
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ps:  Not really.  It's been covered plenty but for some reason the media doesn't seem to have delivered the story to you, despite it being easily attainable via a quick google search (huh...):

6 Facts

Six Myths About Clergy Sexual Abuse in the Catholic Church

There's more fiction than facts in Catholic clergy sexual abuse discussions.

Posted Mar 24, 2010

There are a lot more myths than facts bantered around about clergy sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. Here are six important points that you should know if you are interested in this topic.

1. Catholic clergy aren't more likely to abuse children than other clergy or men in general.

According to the best available data (which is pretty good, coming from a comprehensive report by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice in 2004, as well as several other studies), 4 percent of Catholic priests in the U.S. sexually victimized minors during the past half century. No evidence has been published at this time which states this number is higher than clergy from other religious traditions. The 4 percent figure appears lower than school teachers during the same time frame, and certainly less than offenders in the general population of men. Research states that over 20 percent of American women and about 15 percent of American men were sexually violated by an adult when they were children. Sexual victimization is tragically fairly common in the general population, but luckily these numbers have been dropping in recent years.  

2. Clergy sexual abuse in the Catholic Church can't be blamed on celibacy. Not having sex doesn't make children the object of one's desire.

First, if Catholic clergy aren't more likely to be sex offenders than other clergy or men in general, then celibacy can't be blamed by itself. Most sex offenders are not celibate clergy. Most are married or partnered. Furthermore, many men who don't have sex for a variety of reasons (e.g., no suitable partners or marital or relationship distress) don't turn to children for sexual gratification. They turn to other consenting adults. Think about it: If you don't have sex, who becomes the object of your desire? Children or other adults? 

3. Clergy sexual abuse in the Catholic Church can't be blamed on homosexuality.

Although the vast majority of victims are boys (80 percent, according to the 2004 John Jay study and other studies), and the Catholic Church has a large number of priests who are homosexual in orientation (22-45 percent, according to a variety of studies and reports), homosexuality doesn't make men sex offenders. No evidence exists that suggest sexual orientation, in and of itself, makes someone at risk to commit sex crimes against children or others. Sexual orientation is not a risk factor for crime.

4. Clergy sexual abuse in the Catholic Church can't be blamed on an all-male clergy.

If Catholic clergy aren't more likely to be sex offenders than clergy from other traditions, then an all-male clergy can't be blamed. Having women clergy doesn't stop sex offenders from offending.

5. Almost all of clergy sexual abuse cases in the Catholic Church that we hear about in the news are from decades ago (usually the 1960s and 70s).

Although these stories are horrific to hear, they are almost never about incidents that have occurred since the late 1980s. Incidents of abuse in the past 20 to 25 years are quite rare compared to incidents during the 60s and 70s. This is also true for other groups, such as school teachers. Incidents since the 2002 crisis in the U.S. unfolded are especially rare. Most of the more recent cases are from international priests, who were both born and formed (i.e., trained and ordained) overseas, and who generally didn't go through the screening and training process that local men go through. Some argue that more recent victims (i.e., since the mid 1980s) just haven't come forward yet. Perhaps that is true, but thus far, no published data supports this theory.

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6. Most clergy sex offenders aren't pedophiles.

Research tells us that about 80 percent of clergy sex offenders abuse post-pubescent teens, not pre-pubescent children. So the phrase "pedophilepriest" is a misnomer. You might say that it doesn't matter. Both categories involve victimizing minors. True, but the risk factor profiles, as well as the evaluation and treatment prognoses, are very different between the two groups. Besides, while people may be worried about young children being victimized, they may neglect the more likely victim: the teen.

Perhaps the real issue here is that many are outraged with church leaders (especially bishops), whom they believe have been defensive and arrogant. People demand responsibility and accountability, and they don't see it happening. Clearly, some church leaders treated victims and their families very poorly. For many rank-and-file Catholics, who often put priests on pedestals, it is shocking to hear that some of these men have sexually violated anyone, let alone children. The Catholic Church's unpopular positions on sexual ethics (e.g., masturbation, contraception, homosexuality, divorce) make sex crimes committed by priests even more scandalous. The secrecy and otherworldliness of the Catholic Church also make the story of child sexual abuse committed by priests of great interest to the media and to the general population.

It all sounds like a Dan Brown novel!

Finally, many of the 25 percent of Americans who are Catholic had ambivalent feelings about their church to begin with, even before the clergy abuse crisis unfolded. Many who were raised in the church during previous generations have deeply emotional stories of priests and nuns who had impossibly high standards for thought and behavior, which makes stories of clergy sexually violating children so hypocritical. Perhaps the gospel verse "He who is without sin may cast the first stone" from John 8:7 sums up this sentiment.

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Let me be very clear: The sexual victimization of children by priests (or by anyone for that matter) is inexcusable. Church officials protecting offenders rather than victims is also inexcusable. There is much to be angry about.Many get even more upset when accountability and responsibility in the church doesn't seem to occur.

Many reasonable and thoughtful people argue that the Catholic Church should allow married men, women, and those who are homosexual to be ordained as priests and deacons (as the Episcopals do) to prevent clergy abuse from occurring. But the current data on clergy abuse just doesn't seem to support these arguments. Perhaps future data will change current findings, but one has to go with the best available data to inform one's thinking now.

The recent clergy abuse stories coming out of Europe and South America are not surprising, but we have to be rational, letting good data and logic inform us, rather than relying on myths, anger, and hysteria. If someone (or some group) has empirical data that can contradict the six points mentioned above, please present it, and let it be subjected to academic peer review. We all may have particular beliefs and perspectives about the causes, contexts, nature, and scope of clergy sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, but we should be informed by empirical quality data and reason.  

For more information, you might review my 2004 book, Sin against the Innocents: Sexual Abuse by Priests and the Role of the Catholic Church, and my 1999 book, Bless Me Father For I Have Sinned: Perspectives on Sexual Abuse Committed by Roman Catholic Priests. Additionally, you might take a look at the John Jay Study referred to earlier, which can be accessed from the U.S. Council of Catholic Bishops web site: http://www.usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/(link is external).

One interesting point made here:

Perhaps the real issue here is that many are outraged with church leaders (especially bishops), whom they believe have been defensive and arrogant. People demand responsibility and accountability, and they don't see it happening.
Click to expand...

Whether you agree with this or not, you surely agree that almost every story of abuse has been accompanied by a story of cover-up or mismanagement on the part of the individuals in the hierarchy.  So the argument can be pretty convincingly made that there are other sins on display than pedophilia here.  Maybe some of them are - gasp - hangups like bishops acting unethically to retain power and prestige (their own or the Church's).
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Psychopav said:
The pope continually addresses it because it is a more abhorrent sin.  You're the one interpreting that as a hangup about sex.  Do you think the pope is more hung up on it because he keeps addressing it, or that the Church is more hung up on it because it keeps happening?  Do you expect it to not happen because it's a Church?  What other sins do you expect to not happen?  Do you think they are more hung up on sex than the general public because the pope abhors pedophilia?  I don't.

They are equally hung up on all seven deadly sins.  What does reporting have to do with the hangups that churchgoers may (or may not) have?  Are you saying that the public's appetite for the salacious - which drives the subject of news reports - is analogous to the Church's hangups?  I am not saying that sex isn't something that all humans are more interested in, in all it's facets.  I'm saying that you really don't prove a point when you say that (a) pedophilia happens among the clergy or (b) the pope condemns it.
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Did you really just say do I think they are hung up on it because they have to keep addressing it?   :lmao:

 
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