HOF - Forced Choices #1 (1 Viewer)

[oso diablo]

Hall of Fame Forced Choices - which of these players is MOST deserving of your HOF vote?

Premise: you must choose one of each pairing. One and only one. Even if you think both are deserving of the HOF. Even if you think neither are deserving of the HOF.

Choose Wisely

 

[boubucarow]

Bonds over Clemens. If PEDs are not a factor, you take the player in the conversation of the top 3 hitters of all time over anybody.

Biggio over Bagwell. Biggio will never be remembered to be as great as he was.

McGwire over Palmeiro. If PEDs not a factor, McGwire was a dominant presence in baseball while Palmeiro was just a very good to great player.

Jeter over Rivera. No matter how good a closer you are, you don't get in over an all time great shortstop.

 

[cheese]

Bonds over Clemens. If PEDs are not a factor, you take the player in the conversation of the top 3 hitters of all time over anybody.Biggio over Bagwell. Biggio will never be remembered to be as great as he was.McGwire over Palmeiro. If PEDs not a factor, McGwire was a dominant presence in baseball while Palmeiro was just a very good to great player.Jeter over Rivera. No matter how good a closer you are, you don't get in over an all time great shortstop.

I think you nailed the two PED's votes.I went the other direction on the others. For me, Biggio was a compiler. I remember very few years where playing the Astros meant you HAD to contain Biggio. When my team (Reds FWIW) played the Astros during the prime of both, no question I was first thinking about Jeff Bagwell.On Rivera, I feel like you're comparing THE best closer baseball has ever seen when you factor in consistency, postseason, etc.... against one of many great shortstops. For me, thats enough of a distinction to vote Rivera.

 

[Darth Cheney]

Clemens -Biggio - Palmeiro - Rivera

 

[Koya]

Bonds was a better batter before roids than Clem was a pitcher, especially considering Roger's career began to tank around 30. Unlike Bonds, Clemens would likely NOT have made it to the hall without Roids, Bonds would have.

Next one, I went Bagwell, but more for personal taste as Biggio is really underated and without Roids, would Bags have had that ungodly season?

Another interesting one with Raffy vs. BigMac. Without roids, neither is a HoFer. BigMac would have had more hall of fame years, but Raffy's overall ability as a hitter would have, imo, overcome his lack of natural power, and he likely would have gotten some more power, especially doubles power, through natural maturation. So I went Raffy.

Jeter is a very good SS who was the centerpiece of a modern day dynasty. However, Rivera is, by far, the best to ever play at his position, and as responsible or moreso for the yanks success as anyone. Edge: Mariano.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Rivera is, by far, the best to ever play at his position, and as responsible or moreso for the yanks success as anyone. Edge: Mariano.

 

[shadyridr]

There will never be another Mariano.

 

[Koya]

There will never be another Mariano.

Not only that, but Jeter is the second best shortstop ON HIS TEAM!

 

[shadyridr]

There will never be another Mariano.

Not only that, but Jeter is the second best shortstop ON HIS TEAM!

ARod is way too bulky to play SS now

 

[cheese]

Bonds was a better batter before roids than Clem was a pitcher, especially considering Roger's career began to tank around 30. Unlike Bonds, Clemens would likely NOT have made it to the hall without Roids, Bonds would have.

Next one, I went Bagwell, but more for personal taste as Biggio is really underated and without Roids, would Bags have had that ungodly season?

Another interesting one with Raffy vs. BigMac. Without roids, neither is a HoFer. BigMac would have had more hall of fame years, but Raffy's overall ability as a hitter would have, imo, overcome his lack of natural power, and he likely would have gotten some more power, especially doubles power, through natural maturation. So I went Raffy.

Jeter is a very good SS who was the centerpiece of a modern day dynasty. However, Rivera is, by far, the best to ever play at his position, and as responsible or moreso for the yanks success as anyone. Edge: Mariano.

Without roids, would Biggio have hit ANY home runs?

 

[Eephus]

Bonds was a better batter before roids than Clem was a pitcher, especially considering Roger's career began to tank around 30. Unlike Bonds, Clemens would likely NOT have made it to the hall without Roids, Bonds would have.

Next one, I went Bagwell, but more for personal taste as Biggio is really underated and without Roids, would Bags have had that ungodly season?

Another interesting one with Raffy vs. BigMac. Without roids, neither is a HoFer. BigMac would have had more hall of fame years, but Raffy's overall ability as a hitter would have, imo, overcome his lack of natural power, and he likely would have gotten some more power, especially doubles power, through natural maturation. So I went Raffy.

Jeter is a very good SS who was the centerpiece of a modern day dynasty. However, Rivera is, by far, the best to ever play at his position, and as responsible or moreso for the yanks success as anyone. Edge: Mariano.

Without roids, would Biggio have hit ANY home runs?

he played half his career in the Astrodome

 

[Michael Brown]

Barry vs. Clemens should be an easy one. Bonds was already one of the greatest ever to play pre-roids whereas Clemens needed them for the 2nd-half career surge.

With Palmeiro and McGwire, sans roids, you're probably comparing Mark Grace and Darryl Strawberry's careers. Not sure there's a clear-cut winner there, but I went Mac.

Astros guys, I tend to believe Bagwell was a big juicer so I went Biggio. But if you remove steroid allegations, Bagwell had a lot more HOF years and was the better player assuming it was all on the up-and-up.

The last one's the toughest, but i went Mo. Like Shady said, there will never be another Mo. It isn't like comparing Jeter to a normal closer. This is a closer that is so lights-out that we were celebrating the World Series win last year after Marte finished the 7th inning because we *KNEW* that even if Marte didn't get that 1st out in the 8th, Mariano was getting us as much as we needed the rest of the way.

 

[dparker713]

Glad so many people are able to definitively say how much steroids helped each individual player, even ones that have barely any evidence that they used.

And its Mariano is the correct choice in his poll. While closers are overvalued in the regular season, with all the rest days involved in the post season he can pitch a much high percentage of the total innings. This past postseason, CC pitched 36.1 innings and Rivera pitched 16. While that is a significant difference, its much smaller than the 230 to 66.1 ratio during this past regular season. Add in that he generally appears in much higher leverage situations, and its easy to make the statement that Rivera has been in the running for most valuable post season pitcher on the Yankees every year.

 

[Regular Crust Pizza]

Bonds over Clemens. If PEDs are not a factor, you take the player in the conversation of the top 3 hitters of all time over anybody.Biggio over Bagwell. Biggio will never be remembered to be as great as he was.McGwire over Palmeiro. If PEDs not a factor, McGwire was a dominant presence in baseball while Palmeiro was just a very good to great player.Jeter over Rivera. No matter how good a closer you are, you don't get in over an all time great shortstop.

 

[Eephus]

Glad so many people are able to definitively say how much steroids helped each individual player, even ones that have barely any evidence that they used.And its Mariano is the correct choice in his poll. While closers are overvalued in the regular season, with all the rest days involved in the post season he can pitch a much high percentage of the total innings. This past postseason, CC pitched 36.1 innings and Rivera pitched 16. While that is a significant difference, its much smaller than the 230 to 66.1 ratio during this past regular season. Add in that he generally appears in much higher leverage situations, and its easy to make the statement that Rivera has been in the running for most valuable post season pitcher on the Yankees every year.

I think Rivera is a sure HoFer but I have a problem with ranking a guy who'll end up with around 1200 career IP higher than someone like Jeter who'll probably end his playing days as a top ten player in career hits

 

[boubucarow]

Glad so many people are able to definitively say how much steroids helped each individual player, even ones that have barely any evidence that they used.And its Mariano is the correct choice in his poll. While closers are overvalued in the regular season, with all the rest days involved in the post season he can pitch a much high percentage of the total innings. This past postseason, CC pitched 36.1 innings and Rivera pitched 16. While that is a significant difference, its much smaller than the 230 to 66.1 ratio during this past regular season. Add in that he generally appears in much higher leverage situations, and its easy to make the statement that Rivera has been in the running for most valuable post season pitcher on the Yankees every year.

I think Rivera is a sure HoFer but I have a problem with ranking a guy who'll end up with around 1200 career IP higher than someone like Jeter who'll probably end his playing days as a top ten player in career hits

Only the postseason dominance of Rivera even makes it a decision. If Jeter wasn't the leader of that same team winning multiple championships as well as being an elite shortstop for over a decade, it might be different for me.

 

[Koya]

A thought on Jeter vs. Mariano - both are HoFers without a doubt. That said, they also both benefitted tremendously by the teams they were on. Jeter would not be held in nearly the same regard had he been on a team that didnt make the playoffs that often - and good as he is, he is not the type that single handedly carries teams for large stretches. He is the perfect great player on a great team, especially with the makeup and attitude (corporate, straight forward etc) as the Yanks.

Mariano, by virtue of being a closer, needs a good team to make anything close to the impact he had. As noted, its his postseason stupid dominance that really sets him apart. Put him on an average team, he makes that team good, they fight for the playoffs and may or may not make it.

Both needed to be on a good, and really a great team to achieve their greatness, unlike some HoFers (i.e. E. Banks) whose greatness rose above their teams level of play.

 

[oso diablo]

A thought on Jeter vs. Mariano - both are HoFers without a doubt. That said, they also both benefitted tremendously by the teams they were on. Jeter would not be held in nearly the same regard had he been on a team that didnt make the playoffs that often - and good as he is, he is not the type that single handedly carries teams for large stretches. He is the perfect great player on a great team, especially with the makeup and attitude (corporate, straight forward etc) as the Yanks.Mariano, by virtue of being a closer, needs a good team to make anything close to the impact he had. As noted, its his postseason stupid dominance that really sets him apart. Put him on an average team, he makes that team good, they fight for the playoffs and may or may not make it.Both needed to be on a good, and really a great team to achieve their greatness, unlike some HoFers (i.e. E. Banks) whose greatness rose above their teams level of play.

that's a great observation

 

[Eephus]

A thought on Jeter vs. Mariano - both are HoFers without a doubt. That said, they also both benefitted tremendously by the teams they were on. Jeter would not be held in nearly the same regard had he been on a team that didnt make the playoffs that often - and good as he is, he is not the type that single handedly carries teams for large stretches. He is the perfect great player on a great team, especially with the makeup and attitude (corporate, straight forward etc) as the Yanks.Mariano, by virtue of being a closer, needs a good team to make anything close to the impact he had. As noted, its his postseason stupid dominance that really sets him apart. Put him on an average team, he makes that team good, they fight for the playoffs and may or may not make it.Both needed to be on a good, and really a great team to achieve their greatness, unlike some HoFers (i.e. E. Banks) whose greatness rose above their teams level of play.

that's a great observation

I think that argument works better for Rivera than Jeter. Hall of Fame relievers are a very small sample but other than Wilhelm, they've all played for teams good enough to have some measure of post-season success. Rivera is helped a lot by his post-season record and by the fact he pitched in the media center. His top BR comp is Trevor Hoffman, who I think will probably make it to the Hall someday (if he ever retires) but doesn't have nearly the mystique of Rivera. Jeter's top comps include Alomar, Larkin, Biggio, Gehringer and Frankie Frisch. He's still playing at a pretty high level and should continue to add to his impressive career stats for 3+ years. Even if he hits a brick wall like Alomar did in his mid-30s, I think Jeter would still be a 1st ballot HoFer. If he had bounced around between a few small market, second division clubs, Jeter wouldn't have nearly the same level of general public recognition but he'd still have had a great career.