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Freedom From Religion (1 Viewer)

Amused to Death

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FFRF wins lawsuit against praying W.Va. city council that ‘wrapped itself in a single faith’

The Freedom From Religion Foundation and two of its members have won a federal court challenge against a West Virginia city that, according to the ruling, “wrapped itself in a single faith” by opening with the Lord’s Prayer.

U.S. District Judge John T. Copenhaver, Jr. issued a 30-page decision today in FFRF’s favor. He permanently enjoins the city of Parkersburg from continuing its practice of reciting the Lord’s Prayer at each city council meeting. The decision declares the practice unconstitutional, awards each plaintiff nominal damages, and allows the plaintiffs to seek attorneys fees.

“The City Council’s prayer practice most clearly runs afoul of the Fourth Circuit’s concern with identifying the government with a single preferred religious sect,” writes Copenhaver.

The 4th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals, which has jurisdiction over West Virginia, had previously struck down Christian prayers recited by county commissioners. The opinion by Copenhaver concludes under that analysis: “[T]he City Council wrapped itself in a single faith.”

As the ruling explains: “That is exemplified by the unduly heightened risk of coercion by the state by virtue of the governmental identity of the prayer-givers acting in unison, the invariable nature of the sectarian prayer that is associated with and endorses Christianity, and the implicit and sometimes express invitation to the public in attendance to join in, all in the relative intimacy of a local government setting. It is the combination of these factors — the totality of the circumstances — that renders the prayer practice of the City Council impermissible.”

In 2018, FFRF and two of its local members had sued the city of Parkersburg, W.Va., in the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of West Virginia, to challenge the city council’s formal recitation of the Christian “Lord’s Prayer,” which had officially opened every meeting for more than a decade. Council members led the prayer and were joined by city residents at each meeting in reciting it.

In April 2020, FFRF filed a motion for summary judgment asking the court to rule the practice unconstitutional, noting the practice defies well-established law barring legislators from reciting prayers from exclusively one faith in local government meetings. “Through its commitment to this practice and tradition, Parkersburg has essentially adopted the Lord’s Prayer as the official prayer of the city,” FFRF charged. The Lord’s Prayer derives from the gospel of Matthew (also repeated in the gospel of Luke) in the New Testament.

The plaintiffs include Daryl Cobranchi, who in the past had frequently attended meetings and been directed to stand for the Lord’s Prayer, a practice, he notes, that has made him conspicuous by his nonparticipation and which “assigns to second-class status anyone who is not Christian.” Likewise, Eric Engle, a Parkersburg resident, follows city matters and has felt uncomfortable and pressured to participate in the Christian prayer during public meetings.

Engle comments: “In a country currently plagued by Christian nationalism, this decision is an affirmation of our secular constitutional order and a badly-needed patch in the wall of separation between church and state!”

At least one prior member of the City Council has been openly hostile to nonparticipants. Councilman Eric Barber glared at attendees who sat during the prayer at a meeting. At the end of that prayer, Barber positioned himself near his microphone, pressed the button, and shouted, “Amen.” FFRF later called for an investigation into Barber’s participation in the Jan. 6 insurrection at the U.S. Capitol.

FFRF heartily welcomes the judgment.

“The government shouldn’t be in the business of composing or adopting official prayers, as the court has affirmed. Those prayers turned non-believers into outsiders, now at 29 percent of the population, and non-Christians in general, about 35 percent overall, which is a lot of citizens to exclude,” says FFRF Co-President Annie Laurie Gaylor. “We’re delighted that reason has prevailed, and that our secular Constitution ‘will be done.’”

Gaylor warmly thanks the local plaintiffs for standing up for secular government, a linchpin of U.S. democracy.

The case is No. 2:18-cv-01198. Legal representation was provided by outside counsel Marcus B. Schneider, local counsel Kristina Thomas Whiteaker, and by FFRF Attorneys Patrick C. Elliott and Christopher Line.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation, founded in 1978, has 37,000 members nationwide, including members in West Virginia. FFRF works to defend the constitutional principle of separation between state and church and to educate the public about nontheism.

 
Let's stop indoctrinating first and second graders shall we? In fact, let's stop indoctrinating all students in public schools.

W.Va. school system and parent settle FFRF case over egregious bible classes

The school system had defended the curriculum by claiming the lessons taught history and literature. However, much of the program was fundamentalist Christian instruction. For example, a lesson on Adam and Eve featured the pair with a dinosaur in the background. It asked students: “So picture Adam being able to crawl up on the back of a dinosaur! He and Eve could have their own personal water slide! Wouldn’t that be so wild!”

A lesson titled “Jesus in the Wilderness” told of Jesus resisting temptations from the devil and responding with affirmations of faith in God. These statements were written out for the students on a visual aid used in class.

A bizarre and age-inappropriate lesson titled “Paul’s Third Journey” taught that serial killer Ted Bundy was inspired to kill people because of pornography. The lesson spends a great deal of time discussing “evil spirits.”

“FFRF’s lawsuit ended the use of this material in public schools,” says FFRF Co-President Dan Barker. “We are happy to see the end to this religious instruction, but this shouldn’t have been happening in a secular public school system in the first place.”

 
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Let's stop indoctrinating first and second graders shall we? In fact, let's stop indoctrinating all students in public schools.

W.Va. school system and parent settle FFRF case over egregious bible classes

The school system had defended the curriculum by claiming the lessons taught history and literature. However, much of the program was fundamentalist Christian instruction. For example, a lesson on Adam and Eve featured the pair with a dinosaur in the background. It asked students: “So picture Adam being able to crawl up on the back of a dinosaur! He and Eve could have their own personal water slide! Wouldn’t that be so wild!”

A lesson titled “Jesus in the Wilderness” told of Jesus resisting temptations from the devil and responding with affirmations of faith in God. These statements were written out for the students on a visual aid used in class.

A bizarre and age-inappropriate lesson titled “Paul’s Third Journey” taught that serial killer Ted Bundy was inspired to kill people because of pornography. The lesson spends a great deal of time discussing “evil spirits.”

“FFRF’s lawsuit ended the use of this material in public schools,” says FFRF Co-President Dan Barker. “We are happy to see the end to this religious instruction, but this shouldn’t have been happening in a secular public school system in the first place.”
Agreed.  I have no problem teaching about Christianity (and Judaism, and Islam, and whatever) in public schools, and I'm fine with a limited amount of Biblical material finding its way into literature classes.  But realistically I don't think there's any way to present that material to young children without it crossing over the line into indoctrination.  

High school, maybe.  Third grade?  Nope.

 
Agreed.  I have no problem teaching about Christianity (and Judaism, and Islam, and whatever) in public schools, and I'm fine with a limited amount of Biblical material finding its way into literature classes.  But realistically I don't think there's any way to present that material to young children without it crossing over the line into indoctrination.  

High school, maybe.  Third grade?  Nope.


I think most sane people agree that that age group should not be worried about religion or gender-roles...both sides have their freaks...unfortunately the freaks think they are the normal ones.

 
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I think most sane people agree that that age group should not be worried about religion or gender-roles...both sides have their freaks...unfortunately the freaks think they are the normal ones.
yeah, people that call others "freaks" are the reason that there is a problem, not education or curriculum.

 
What bothers me is your complete misunderstanding of what I am saying because you clearly don't get it and are looking for a beef.
what bothers me is that if you're going to be a bigot you should own it.  we both know what you said and what you meant. backpedal all you want. 

 
what bothers me is that if you're going to be a bigot you should own it.  we both know what you said and what you meant. backpedal all you want. 


So, not wanting adults to push religion and sex on 1st graders is bigotry...no backpedaling here...that's just not my thing...sorry if I hit a sore spot with you since you feel it's appropriate to push that on kids.

 
what bothers me is that if you're going to be a bigot you should own it.  we both know what you said and what you meant. backpedal all you want. 
He said people that age (kids) shouldnt be worried about gender roles.  So obviously he wasnt calling them freaks.  The freaks are the ones that think kids that age should be worried about gender roles.  In his words.  

 
So, not wanting adults to push religion and sex on 1st graders is bigotry...no backpedaling here...that's just not my thing...sorry if I hit a sore spot with you since you feel it's appropriate to push that on kids.
yeah, you know thats not what it is, or you're ignorant of what the curriculum you're complaining about actually contains.

We both know what's really going on.  

 
this is a great example of why religious dogma should never be taught in schools.  it just gives cover to hateful bigotry and ignorance.

 
yeah, you know thats not what it is, or you're ignorant of what the curriculum you're complaining about actually contains.

We both know what's really going on.  
Since you completely mischaracterized his simple post how can we be assured that you can understand a curriculum? 

 
Atheism, "freedom from religion", what-have-you is an interesting topic.  I really wish the 20-drunk-post interlude, or whatever it was, from last night could be expunged and the thread set back on course.

The subject of religious indoctrination is an interesting one to me.  I know many middle age adults who are dead-certain of their superstitious beliefs, when said beliefs were by-and-large indoctrinated into them during childhood by people who themselves were indoctrinated as children.  It is basically our cultural default.  If you were to use the analogy of a virus, you would have to admit that the "virus of religion" has found an effective way to persist in the population.

Certitude regarding superstitious beliefs can lead to unfortunate outcomes, including swaggering arrogance, eschewing education since one "has all the info one needs", lack of tolerance for other religions or no religion at all, and a use of that particular superstition's source materials to justify coercion or exclusion.  I was just yesterday reading about a guy (Mastriano?) running for office in PA whose wife said something to the effect that his campaign was in an ongoing fight against demons.  Very alarming language, and there are no doubt many who would countenance malfeasance and a smaller subset who would countenance violence in such a fight.  Most superstition source material can be interpreted in such a way to suggest that the ends justify the means.  And everyone wants to be in the "good guys" group.

OTOH religious indoctrination can have beneficial effects, such as codifying "love thy neighbor", "thou shalt not kill", etc.

Anyway, religion has no problem spreading at home and in church.  No need to countenance it in the public school system.  I have no problem with a class teaching about various religions, their core tenets, their history, etc, on an equal footing.  But since it is such a fraught topic I'm not sure how to make it fly.  School board meetings are already such a mess. ;]

 
Anyway, religion has no problem spreading at home and in church.  No need to countenance it in the public school system. 
I keep coming back to exactly this point too.  Whenever we get to issues involving either indoctrination or censorship, I think you get a really good and reliable sense for which side is confident about airing their views in public and letting them get sorted out in the public square, and which side secretly suspects that they can't win a fair fight and therefore demand a thumb on the scale. 

Christianity has survived just fine for 2000 years.  I'm not worried about it.  It doesn't need to be propped up by elementary schools.  Or, if it does, it's a lost cause anyway.  People who argue (in essence, never explicitly in these terms of course) that little kids will automatically turn into heathens if we don't say the Lord's prayer every morning before social studies are kind of just announcing to the world that they see their own belief system as being pretty brittle.  Self-confident people don't see it that way.  

 
Agreed.  I have no problem teaching about Christianity (and Judaism, and Islam, and whatever) in public schools, and I'm fine with a limited amount of Biblical material finding its way into literature classes.  But realistically I don't think there's any way to present that material to young children without it crossing over the line into indoctrination.  

High school, maybe.  Third grade?  Nope.


Third grade is when schools should teach about and indoctrinate children about if they are hetro, gay, bi, trans, or queer.  Not religion.

 
I keep coming back to exactly this point too.  Whenever we get to issues involving either indoctrination or censorship, I think you get a really good and reliable sense for which side is confident about airing their views in public and letting them get sorted out in the public square, and which side secretly suspects that they can't win a fair fight and therefore demand a thumb on the scale. 

Christianity has survived just fine for 2000 years.  I'm not worried about it.  It doesn't need to be propped up by elementary schools.  Or, if it does, it's a lost cause anyway.  People who argue (in essence, never explicitly in these terms of course) that little kids will automatically turn into heathens if we don't say the Lord's prayer every morning before social studies are kind of just announcing to the world that they see their own belief system as being pretty brittle.  Self-confident people don't see it that way.  


All very well said.

If anyone is interested I can share a few of my wife's stories of her childhood in NW PA in a pentecostal community.  ####### awful stuff.  Basically ritualized child abuse.  The only time she felt safe and happy was IN SCHOOL.  Keep evangelism as far from school as possible.

 
Anyway, religion has no problem spreading at home and in church.  No need to countenance it in the public school system.  I have no problem with a class teaching about various religions, their core tenets, their history, etc, on an equal footing.  But since it is such a fraught topic I'm not sure how to make it fly.  School board meetings are already such a mess. ;]
I think an elective at the high school level studying the history of religion that includes various religions of the world, beginning with Roman, Greek, and Norse mythology. I have no issue with people's personal beliefs and will never belittle anyone's religion. But I do have very strong opinions of it creeping into our public schools and government. Ours was a government established exclusively to be "By the People and For the People". There is no mention whatsoever of any religion in our Constitution other than to say we must not favor any religion over another. I'm very strongly against Christian-only prayers before government meetings and Christian-only school programs and Christian-only prayer sessions led by public school teachers and coaches. 

“Anybody who wants religion is welcome to it, as far as I'm concerned--I support your right to enjoy it. However, I would appreciate it if you exhibited more respect for the rights of those people who do not wish to share your dogma, rapture, or necrodestination.” - Frank Zappa

 
All very well said.

If anyone is interested I can share a few of my wife's stories of her childhood in NW PA in a pentecostal community.  ####### awful stuff.  Basically ritualized child abuse.  The only time she felt safe and happy was IN SCHOOL.  Keep evangelism as far from school as possible.
Spiritual abuse is definitely a thing. There's so much bad theology swirling around. Unfortunately, way too many people have had very few encounters with a loving group of God followers. 

 
Spiritual abuse is definitely a thing. There's so much bad theology swirling around. Unfortunately, way too many people have had very few encounters with a loving group of God followers. 
Our next door neighbors for nearly 20 years are devout Catholics. Giant crucifix in their living room, statues of the Virgin Mary, holy water by their front door (I think), home school their 3 kids. The most wonderful neighbors you could ever hope for. But outside of their home you would never know it. I've had hours long conversations in the front yard with them and religion and politics have never come up. Not once in all the years we've known them.

Their devotion to Christ is their life and completely respect them for that, and they've never once tried to discuss religion with me, my wife, or our kids.

 
Spiritual abuse is definitely a thing. There's so much bad theology swirling around. Unfortunately, way too many people have had very few encounters with a loving group of God followers. 


I've seen very bad groups and known really terrible people who hold their faith as the core of their identity.  Protestant evangelicals are over-represented in this group, probably because its DIY nature allows damaged or just-plain-bad people to pick and choose what works for them from the Chinese Buffet of available tenets.

I've also seen very very good groups/people.  I've read Joe's thoughts and have been impressed, for instance.  I have some coworkers who are really truly great, loving, patient, and giving people who are Catholic at the core.  I have friends in the ICOC who are strongly religious, good citizens, value secular education, and rub shoulder with a heathen athiest like me without issue.

I guess I shouldn't blame religion as much as I do.  It is only as good as the source material it is dealing with.  Ignorant, angry, impulsive people with poor self-esteem are not going to represent any given faith very well.  Where I do blame religion is that it provides cover because even though some adherents might have deplorable faults, they all are fighting the same forces of darkness.  Priorities!

 
I guess I shouldn't blame religion as much as I do.  It is only as good as the source material it is dealing with.  Ignorant, angry, impulsive people with poor self-esteem are not going to represent any given faith very well.  Where I do blame religion is that it provides cover because even though some adherents might have deplorable faults, they all are fighting the same forces of darkness.  Priorities!
100%. I don't think religion makes bad people; bad people use religion to justify their beliefs. Homophobic people will justify it by citing Bible verses or claiming its part of their "deeply held religious beliefs". But there are many parts of the Bible that simply do not apply in today's world - accepting homosexuality and differences among people needs to be the next relic to drop the same way interracial relationships are now accepted but were once shunned due to religion. 

Just my opinion, of course.

 
I guess I shouldn't blame religion as much as I do.  It is only as good as the source material it is dealing with.  Ignorant, angry, impulsive people with poor self-esteem are not going to represent any given faith very well.  Where I do blame religion is that it provides cover because even though some adherents might have deplorable faults, they all are fighting the same forces of darkness.  Priorities!
100%. I don't think religion makes bad people; bad people use religion to justify their beliefs. Homophobic people will justify it by citing Bible verses or claiming its part of their "deeply held religious beliefs". But there are many parts of the Bible that simply do not apply in today's world - accepting homosexuality and differences among people needs to be the next relic to drop the same way interracial relationships are now accepted but were once shunned due to religion. 

Just my opinion, of course.
Personally, I'd change that to "It is only as good as one's understanding of the source material it is dealing with." (I'm assuming by "source material", you mean the Bible.)

 
Personally, I'd change that to "It is only as good as one's understanding of the source material it is dealing with." (I'm assuming by "source material", you mean the Bible.)
I took "source material" to mean the person. Good people will usually have a good moral compass regardless of their religion while bad people will be who they are regardless. A bad person will use religion as a means to justify bad behavior. Or in other words, religion will be used according to one's own moral compass.

Conversely, bad people are bad with or without religion - same for a good person.

 
100%. I don't think religion makes bad people; bad people use religion to justify their beliefs. Homophobic people will justify it by citing Bible verses or claiming its part of their "deeply held religious beliefs". But there are many parts of the Bible that simply do not apply in today's world - accepting homosexuality and differences among people needs to be the next relic to drop the same way interracial relationships are now accepted but were once shunned due to religion. 

Just my opinion, of course.


One phenomena of the evangelism community I find interesting is how male-dominated it is.  I think we can all agree that most guys (but no FBGs) are absolute morons, at least when their lips are moving.  A community that encourages DIY faith observance and the public deeply emotional act of bearing witness is vulnerable to getting leadership by the largest, loudest, most impassioned male in the room.  Not necessarily the most patient, thoughtful, or reliable leadership!  Useful platoon leadership for a crusade, no doubt.

In the past I have railed against the anti-male climate in the school system, and in society in general.  Young men have not always been valued, and their excess energy was something to be controlled or suppressed rather than given proper outlet.  Then they get out of school and into the workforce and the good male-friendly jobs are drying up.  They feel gypped, angry, dislocated.  This has been going on for a long time.  Evangelism offers a home that is welcoming on several fronts.  Perhaps the only home left in our society.  No wonder evangelism has an angry xenophobic male problem.

 
One phenomena of the evangelism community I find interesting is how male-dominated it is.  I think we can all agree that most guys (but no FBGs) are absolute morons, at least when their lips are moving.  A community that encourages DIY faith observance and the public deeply emotional act of bearing witness is vulnerable to getting leadership by the largest, loudest, most impassioned male in the room.  Not necessarily the most patient, thoughtful, or reliable leadership!  Useful platoon leadership for a crusade, no doubt.

In the past I have railed against the anti-male climate in the school system, and in society in general.  Young men have not always been valued, and their excess energy was something to be controlled or suppressed rather than given proper outlet.  Then they get out of school and into the workforce and the good male-friendly jobs are drying up.  They feel gypped, angry, dislocated.  This has been going on for a long time.  Evangelism offers a home that is welcoming on several fronts.  Perhaps the only home left in our society.  No wonder evangelism has an angry xenophobic male problem.
What do you mean by "DIY"? I mean, I assume that means "do it yourself" but I'm not sure how you're applying that to evangelicalism. Can you give some examples?

 

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