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Do You Believe Current Democrats Have A "Messaging" Problem? (4/26/22 23:29 PST) (1 Viewer)

GordonGekko

Footballguy
Direct Headline: Do Democrats Have a Messaging Problem?

After the elections last week, in which Democrats across the country lost races they expected to win or narrowly escaped defeat, some are asking whether the Democratic Party is suffering from a similar problem of insularity in its messaging. Critics and some prominent liberals .... have argued that Democrats are trying to explain major issues — such as inflation, crime and school curriculum — with answers that satisfy the party’s progressive base but are unpersuasive and off-putting to most other voters....calls the Democrats’ problem with critical race theory and other galvanizing issues the “Fox News Fallacy.”...These issues are ripe for distortions and exaggeration by Republican politicians and their allies in the news media. But Mr. Teixeira says Democrats should not dismiss voters’ concerns as simply right-wing misinformation....“An issue is not necessarily completely invalid just because Fox News mentions it,” he said....In an interview, Mr. Teixeira said his logic applied to questions far beyond critical race theory. “I can’t tell you how many times I analyze a particular issue, saying this is a real concern,” he said. “And the first thing I hear is, ‘Hey, this is a right-wing talking point. You’re playing into the hands of the enemy.’”...

By Jeremy W. Peters Nov. 9, 2021

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/09/us/politics/democrats-schools-voters.html

Direct Headline: Democrats need to get back to a simple dichotomy

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) has a sharper message. “Democrats, Ms. Pelosi told Mr. Biden and a group of his aides, need a more succinct and consistent message,” the New York Times reports. “The speaker, who has long been fond of pithy, made-for-bumper-sticker mantras, offered a suggestion she had heard from members: Democrats deliver.”...So what can Biden do? At its most basic, Democrats must convince voters they are on the side of regular Americans — making progress and solving real problems (e.g., jobs, covid). They need to remind voters that Democrats are on the right side of the middle class, democracy and law and order....Democrats need to get back to a fundamental message: When in power, they make government work for ordinary people and defend American values (democracy, opportunity, fairness, playing by the rules). They solve real problems.....

By Jennifer Rubin March 14, 2022 at 7:45 a.m. EDT

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/03/14/democrats-messaging-problem/

Direct Headline: Democrats Are Losing the Culture War. A Messaging Shift Won’t Save Them.

The party must point to deeds, not words, to show they understand voters’ concerns....As Republicans seize on crime and schools and Covid to win in Virginia and beyond, President Joe Biden’s approval ratings are falling into a Trump-like trough. And with signs of further erosion among working-class voters who were once the core of the Democratic Party, notable voices from the center to the left are offering an assortment of rhetorical tools to staunch the bleeding....All sides of the debate agree that Democrats are currently losing the culture war to the GOP. But the harsh reality is that a simple shift in messaging — either to rebutting Republican attacks or shifting the ground to economic issues — won’t be enough to save Democrats come November. Democrats are the ones in power, and people need to feel their lives are improved. It will take deeds, not words — along with a generous dose of good fortune — to stave off a midterm disaster....More extensive — and more eyebrow-raising — is the analysis from prominent Democratic pollster and strategist Stan Greenberg, who has for decades been focusing his energies on working-class voters. His essay in The American Prospect has tough things to say about the last three Democratic presidential candidates....“The Obama years,” he writes, “were the critical juncture when Democratic leaders stopped seeing the working class and feeling its despair and anger. … The result is that the Democratic Party has lost touch with all working people, including its own base.”...About his client Hillary Clinton, he writes: “Clinton’s general approach on the economy was to say she would ‘build on the progress’ Obama had made, which said to voters she was not going to change much. … Her description of some Trump supporters as ‘deplorables’ just baked in the perception that she did not respect working people.”...And looking at 2020, Greenberg pushes back against the notion that racial attitudes predominantly explain the flight of the working class to the GOP. While Trump “defied the demographic trends” by boosting white working-class turnout, he also increased his vote with Black men and Hispanics....What to do? Based on his work with focus groups, Greenberg says Democrats must present themselves as agents of change, particularly on the economy and who holds power: “If Democrats are to stop hemorrhaging their working-class support and achieve the kinds of gains that they did in 2018, they have to embrace a message of change.”...

Opinion by Jeff Greenfield 02/23/2022 04:25 PM EST

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/23/democrats-losing-culture-war-messaging-shift-00011091

Direct Headline: Democrats think their messaging is bad, but it's actually the product no one wants

When Democrats lose, find themselves on the wrong side of approval polling, or face a likely election loss, the one excuse they cling to like guns and religion is poor messaging. "We're doing great! But we're not conveying that effectively to people!" ...If Democrats could wipe away the sanctimony from their eyes, they might notice that despite positive GDP numbers and low unemployment, people are watching their grocery bills climb every week. Couple that with gas higher gas prices, continuing supply chain snarls, and Calvinball rules over mask and vaccine mandates, people might not be all that thrilled with the party in power....Naturally, instead of recognizing when the facts change, Democrats focus on the messaging. Some go so far as to blame outside forces for that failed messaging. For example, Dan Pfeiffer, a former communications director for Barack Obama, recently appeared on a Vox podcast. The write-up reads: "His main point is that Democrats are struggling to define themselves and get their message to voters because the media environment is stacked against them in fundamental ways."...When you stop laughing, you'll see they're dead serious. People like Pfeiffer have convinced themselves that the media landscape above all else prevents them from getting their winning message through to the public. When they try to go that route, they sound like Scooby-Doo villains: "We'd have a permanent majority if it weren't for those meddling kids like Ben Shapiro!"...Buried beneath all the pomp and lofty talk about "messaging" lies the real problem for Democrats this election cycle, and it is the contempt they have for the very people they want voting for them. To argue about messaging is to assume that voters don't have the cognitive ability to recognize the "wonderfulness" of what Democrats have offered them. Or that voters are like cats who will stop whatever it is they're doing to chase a little red laser light....Unfortunately, contempt often breeds indifference. When that happens, Democrats are the ones no longer paying attention, operating under the assumption that "they just don't get it." Before long, they wake up one day, and they're Terry McAuliffe, losing in a state that Biden won 365 days before by 10 percentage points....

By Jay Caruso February 16, 2022 04:06 PM

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/equality-not-elitism/democrats-think-their-messaging-is-bad-but-its-actually-the-product-no-one-wants

********

Something I've heard quite a bit from the radical leftists here, and from others in the MSM, is that the real problem for the current Democratic Party is the "messaging"  That it's not the policy that's bad, but how it's being explained to the masses is ineffective. Or that the message is being distorted by the "disinformation laden right wing"

However this discussion begins to raise some ugly questions, and now even typically left leaning activist complicit outlets and publications are forced to point it out - Is the current Democratic Party really addressing the concerns and making the lives better of every day working class American citizens?

As Jeff Greenfield discusses above, did the Democratic Party stop seeing and understanding the frustration, anger and despair of their large base that is living check to check and hand to mouth and wondering why their current Party, the one in power, has failed to deliver for them?

Or as Jay Caruso mentions, did the Democratic Party simply ignore that it's not about the messaging but that the policy itself is horrific, ill conceived and indefensible? And does blaming "messaging" operate as an unneeded trigger point to incite their own base because of the tone deaf implications of the thinly veiled condescension?

A good example would be the Biden Administrations disastrous handling of the withdrawal from Afghanistan. What exactly could you change about the "message" to make that any less repugnant and unforgivable to the American people at large?

I'll leave this here for others to discuss.

 
CONTEXTUAL MATERIAL ( MID TERMS / RED TORNADO AHEAD):

Direct Headline: Democratic midterm fears mount as policies fail to resonate with voters

At the Democratic National Committee, Jaime Harrison, the party’s chair, has settled on the slogan, “Democrats deliver,” arguing that it allows the party to focus on the legislation it has passed and draw contrasts with Republicans.

By Tyler Pager, Sean Sullivan, Michael Scherer and Marianna Sotomayor November 29, 2021 6:00 a.m. EST

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/democrats-midterms-fears/2021/11/28/b3d2280a-4d4d-11ec-94ad-bd85017d58dc_story.html

Direct Headline: The Mess Democrats Are In

If they fail to get their act together, they will suffer a defeat in the midterms that increases the likelihood of Donald Trump’s return to the White House.

By John Nichols November 12, 2021

https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/dems-midterms/

Direct Headline: Retirements mount as House Democrats try to defend their majority in the 2022 midterms

Retirements can not only signal pessimism about a party’s ability to keep its majority but also can make districts without incumbents harder to retain.

Jacob Pramuk Mon, Oct 18 2021 7:44 PM EDT

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/18/house-democrat-retirements-mount-before-2022-midterm-elections.html

Direct Headline: Democrats Face Bleak Midterms as Polls Show Majority Will Vote for GOP Candidates

Midterm elections often benefit the party that is not in control of the White House.

By Darragh Roche On 11/9/21 at 10:23 AM EST

https://www.newsweek.com/democrats-bleak-midterms-polls-majority-vote-gop-candidates-2022-1647381

 
CONTEXTUAL MATERIAL ( NO MESSAGE CAN MAKE AFGHANISTAN DISASTER DEFENSIBLE):

Direct Headline: Desperate mothers reported to throw babies over Kabul airport barbed wire

In some cases, desperate women resorted to throwing their own babies over barbed wire to British soldiers inside the airport, Sky News reported. The United Kingdom-based outlet quoted an unnamed officer as saying that not all of those attempts were successful. “It was terrible, women were throwing their babies over the razor wire, asking the soldiers to take them, some got caught in the wire,” he said. “I’m worried for my men, I’m counseling some, everyone cried last night.”

By AFP and TOI staff 19 August 2021, 6:42 pm

https://www.timesofisrael.com/desperate-mothers-reported-to-throw-babies-over-kabul-airport-barbed-wire/

Direct Headline: Afghan allies in hiding, executed in the street — Jewish people know this haunting story

In a terrified call from a family in Panjshir province Tuesday we were told the Taliban dragged all males aged 10 to 65 from their homes and executed them in the street. Children as young as 10 years old murdered just for existing. Their blood is on our hands. As Jews, we know this story all too well. We know what it's like to fear for the death of our children. These families are in danger because of their work with the United States government and our military.

Will Berkovitz 9/9/21

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2021/09/09/afghanistan-taliban-killing-people/5772708001/

Direct Headline: Taliban ask for list of girls above 15, widows under 45 to be married to their fighters: Reports

Under the Taliban rule before being ousted after the US-led invasion in 2001, women were barred from going to school, work outside the home or leave their house without a male escort in Afghanistan. Violators were humiliated publicly and beaten up by the Taliban's religious police. Now, Afghanistan elders say the Taliban will take away their daughters and forcefully marry them and turn them into slaves

Meenakshi Ray Jul 16, 2021 11:22 AM IST

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/taliban-asks-for-list-of-girls-widows-to-be-married-to-their-fighters-reports-101626413987086.html

TWEET: Ben Shapiro XX@XXbenshapiro

"The most powerful military in the (complete) history of the (entire) world does not have the capacity to drive Americans ( in harm's way) to the airport in fear of a bunch of Stone Age (Taliban) barbarians armed with (abandoned) American weapons"

( RE: SEC AUSTIN: "We don't have the capability to go out and collect large numbers of people (and bring them to safety)." )

1:19 PM · Aug 18, 2021·Twitter Web App

https://mobile.twitter.com/benshapiro/status/1428089231805722628

 
CONTEXTUAL MATERIAL ( NO MESSAGE CAN MAKE AFGHANISTAN DISASTER DEFENSIBLE):

VIDEO: Psaki Can’t Offer Any Guarantee That All Americans Will Be Evacuated From Afghanistan Aug 17, 2021

President Joe Biden’s Press Secretary Jen Psaki could not offer any guarantee that all Americans would be evacuated from Afghanistan, during the White House press briefing on 8/17/2021.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IO7MOS1uuHk

VIDEO: NSA Sullivan: “Certainly A Fair Amount” Of US Weapons Have Fallen Into The Hands Of The Taliban Aug 17, 2021

President Joe Biden’s National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan said that “certainly a fair amount” of US weapons have fallen into the hands of the Taliban, during the White House press briefing on 8/17/2021.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrWIhW5X3Gs

VIDEO: Biden National Security Advisor Refuses To Commit To Evacuating All Americans From Afghanistan Aug 17, 2021

President Joe Biden’s National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan refused to commit to evacuating all Americans from Afghanistan, during the White House press briefing on 8/17/2021.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap1MILCiuE8

VIDEO: Jake Sullivan On Afghanistan: “We” Do “Take Responsibility” BUT “Other Parties” Are “Responsible” Aug 17, 2021

President Joe Biden’s National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan said in regards to Afghanistan that “we” do “take responsibility” but “other parties” are “responsible,” during the White House Press Briefing on 8/17/2021.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEtXtDuCPoQ

 
CONTEXTUAL MATERIAL ( NO MESSAGE CAN MAKE AFGHANISTAN DISASTER DEFENSIBLE):

VIDEO: WATCH: Dreadful Videos Emerge Showing Biden's Afghanistan Disaster Aug 18, 2021

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmvCT7j9MFc

Direct Headline: China Embraces High-Stakes Taliban Relationship as U.S. Exits

Bloomberg News August 16, 2021, 2:00 PM PDT

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-08-16/china-enters-high-stakes-relationship-with-post-u-s-afghanistan

Direct Headline:  China Preparing to Recognize Taliban if Kabul Falls: Sources

The move comes at the expense of the U.S., which has held up the Taliban’s international legitimacy as its remaining source of leverage while the militant group storms across Afghanistan.

By Paul D. Shinkman Aug. 12, 2021, at 12:52 p.m.

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2021-08-12/china-prepared-to-recognize-taliban-if-kabul-falls-sources-say-undermining-us-threats

Direct HeadlineChina Embraces Taliban, Eyeing Own Interests

Jackie Northam August 14, 20215:17 PM ET

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/14/1027756566/china-embraces-taliban-eyeing-own-interests

 
CONTEXTUAL MATERIAL ( NO MESSAGE CAN MAKE AFGHANISTAN DISASTER DEFENSIBLE):

Direct Headline: Taliban Seize U.S. Weapons in Afghanistan, Stockpiling Helicopters, Guns and Trucks

The most recent quarterly report of the U.S.-led military coalition documented deliveries of 174 Humvees, nearly three million rounds of ammunition, and nearly 100,000 2.75-inch rockets during the period. The U.S. has also transferred anti-tank missiles, automatic grenade launchers, mortars and rocket-propelled grenades to Afghan forces. In all, Washington has spent more than $80 billion over 20 years on the Afghan forces, government auditors have said.

By Brett Forrest Aug. 20, 2021 10:48 am ET

https://www.wsj.com/articles/taliban-seize-u-s-weapons-in-afghanistan-stockpiling-helicopters-guns-and-trucks-11629470916

Direct Headline: Tanks, attack helicopters, drones, bullets: What the arms left behind by U.S. mean for the Taliban

“Weapon systems that are noticeable, like anti-tank guided weapons or man-portable air-defense systems, or easily recognizable and associable with the U.S. offer propaganda opportunities even if they would be less favored in the field,” The greater concern, Spleeters said, is that the arms could filter through to other militant groups in Afghanistan — with or without the Taliban’s approval. He pointed to what happened in Iraq, Syria and Yemen, where arms that the U.S. supplied to proxy groups often wound up in the hands of factions hostile to the U.S.“The bottom line is that once you supply weapons to parties in conflict you open a Pandora’s box. These weapons will eventually end up in other hands,” Spleeters said. “It’s like a blank check....”

By Nabih Bulos Sept. 3, 2021 8:34 AM

https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2021-09-03/taliban-weapons-bonanza-us-withdrawal-afghanistan

Direct Headline:  American weapons looted by Taliban likely to be first used for violence in Pakistan before reaching India: Indian officers

ETIT Aug 24, 2021, 01:41 PM IST

Senior military officers said the weapons are expected to be provided to terror groups operating in India as well but the security forces are fully prepared to tackle those who would attempt to use them here.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/american-weapons-looted-by-taliban-likely-to-be-first-used-for-violence-in-pakistan-before-reaching-india-indian-officers/articleshow/85588351.cms?from=mdr

Direct Headline: Saudi Arabia’s former intel chief calls weapons proliferation risk in Afghanistan very worrying as terror threat grows

“We’ve seen the Russian ambassador, Chinese ambassador, Iranian ambassador and Pakistani ambassador not only remaining in Kabul, but making statements about future relations with the Taliban,” he said. “There is something going on between the Taliban and these countries about where they’re going to go in the future,” he said.  China was among the first countries that expressed willingness to engage with the Taliban when it swept to power in Afghanistan, seeking to pick up where America left off.

Dan Murphy and Hadley Gamble  Sun, Aug 29 20217:19 PM EDT

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/30/weapons-proliferation-risk-in-afghanistan-very-worrying-saudi-prince-turki.html

Direct Headline: U.S.-made weapons seized by Taliban could lead to regional arms bazaar

“I have full confidence that some of this equipment is going to end up in the hands of al Qaeda and other bad actors, it's inevitable,” said Colin Clarke, director of policy and research at The Soufan Group. “This is not going to just end with the Taliban.” The volume of U.S. military assistance over the past two decades is staggering, with $83 billion spent to train and equip an army that after years of heavy battlefield losses, finally melted away.

By PAUL MCLEARY and LEE HUDSON 08/19/2021 04:57 PM EDT

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/08/19/us-weapons-seized-taliban-506313

 
CONTEXTUAL MATERIAL ( NO MESSAGE CAN MAKE AFGHANISTAN DISASTER DEFENSIBLE):

VIDEO: Biden: "Can you think of any other president that has done as much in one year?" Jan 19, 2022

https://youtu.be/qRxU-fUXu0E?t=7

Direct Headline: Biden's epic failures

Biden, who marks one year in office next Thursday, has never been less popular nationally, after personally lobbying his party and the public on Build Back Better and voting rights — and failing....Biden is on the verge of losing two big fights of his choosing — with his party controlling both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue...It's rare for a president to be at odds with Republicans, moderate Democrats and liberal Democrats — all at once. But that's where Biden finds himself at the start of an election year that many Democrats believe will result in the loss of the House and maybe the Senate...Members of some civil-rights group refused to appear with Biden for his voting speech in Atlanta. ...Sen. **** Durbin of Illinois, the Senate's No. 2 Democrat, distanced himself from some of Biden's rhetoric in Atlanta...The Supreme Court yesterday blocked Biden's vaccine-or-test mandate for large employers....The Afghanistan pullout played out about as poorly as it could have....Russia is messing with him: Biden's warnings haven't deterred Vladimir Putin from continuing to build toward a Ukraine invasion....Inflation is soaring: It's the worst in 39 years....Empty grocery shelves get network-news coverage....

Mike Allen, Jim VandeHei Jan 14, 2022

https://www.axios.com/biden-agenda-failure-democrats-47947ce1-91b8-45e0-952f-4598fbda1789.html

Direct Headline: Up to 15,000 Americans remain in Afghanistan after Taliban takeover

As many as 15,000 Americans remain in Afghanistan following the Taliban's takeover of the county, Biden administration officials told U.S. Senate staffers Tuesday, according to two aides.

By Julie Tsirkin, Frank Thorp V and Phil Helsel  Aug. 17, 2021, 6:23 PM PDT

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/15-000-americans-remain-afghanistan-after-taliban-takeover-n1277033

Direct Headline: Biden must rescue thousands of U.S. citizens trapped in Afghanistan

Several congressional staffers told me that American citizens in Kabul have been flooding their office’s phone lines, complaining that after being told on Sunday by the State Department to shelter in place and not to come to the embassy or the airport, they have not received any further information and are scared for their lives.

Josh Rogin 8/16/21 4:52 p.m. EDT

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/08/16/biden-must-rescue-thousands-us-citizens-trapped-afghanistan/

TWEET:

Margherita Stancati XX@XXmargheritamvs

(Wall Street Journal correspondent based in Rome. Previously in Beirut, Riyadh, Dubai, Kabul and New Delhi)

Hearing from multiple sources that Taliban have been going door to door in places looking for people with Western ties.

3:34 PM · Aug 15, 2021

https://twitter.com/margheritamvs/status/1427036081120231424

Direct Headline: Obama Freed The Taliban Leader Who Engineered Kabul Takeover

August 17, 2021 By Haley Strack

https://thefederalist.com/2021/08/17/obama-freed-the-taliban-leader-who-engineered-kabul-takeover/

 
TL/DNR any of your multiple back-to-back diatribes. The title question was sufficient enough for me to provide an opinion. 

Yes, the current Democrats have a messaging problem. The previous Democrats did also. It's been a problem for most of my lifetime.

The current Republicans have a messaging problem right now too. I'll leave that issue for another, yet to be started, thread.

 
A messaging problem is when you can't be honest about what you are doing or not doing or if you have to give a convoluted excuse/reason as to what you are doing or not doing...in sports terms it is like blaming the refs for your bad play...I find "bad messaging" to be one of the lamest narratives in politics.

 
Democrats, like GG don't do sound bytes.  They get bogged down in technical details that no one has time to care about (ancient example being Jimmy Carter's one and done radio show) while republicans give us two words that invoke a feeling.  Oh sure democrats figure this out and try to replicate, but the notable exceptions that can do this just prove the rule.

 
I was going to say in before the first person claims that Democrats have always had a messaging problem, but Ruffrodys5 sure beat me to the chase. 

It's the policies, fellas. They don't seem to be very popular in America. Like it or not, it's all about the policies. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
There's a messaging problem but there also seems to be little cohesion within the party. Moderates are having to deal with progressives pushing their agendas. IMO if the moderates were the clear leaders in the party they'd be in a better place, but the party seems to be hijacked by people like AOC and Omar who are loud, brash and have helped drive people away from the party (IMO). I consider myself a moderate democrat (no problem leaning Republican if I like the candidate) and feel completely demoralized the last few years. Been a long time since a politician really inspired me. 

 
Its not a problem, it’s a total disaster. Democrats suck at messaging. 

Cold weather, that’s a problem. Traffic jam on the freeway is a problem. This is more like Katrina. 

 
There's a messaging problem but there also seems to be little cohesion within the party. Moderates are having to deal with progressives pushing their agendas. IMO if the moderates were the clear leaders in the party they'd be in a better place, but the party seems to be hijacked by people like AOC and Omar who are loud, brash and have helped drive people away from the party (IMO). I consider myself a moderate democrat (no problem leaning Republican if I like the candidate) and feel completely demoralized the last few years. Been a long time since a politician really inspired me. 
This too. 

 
It's the policies, fellas. They don't seem to be very popular in America. Like it or not, it's all about the policies. 
Kind of like how the ACA (ObamaCare) was terribly unpopular but each of its major provisions had overwhelming public support.  How Medicare for All is supported by about 55% of the population and a "public option" about 70%.  While public support for stricter gun control has slipped a bit in the past couple of years, it is still supported by the majority of the masses.   It is about 2/3 of the public that when polled said that the government should be doing more to fight climate control.  Over 60% support some form of college debt forgiveness.  Etc., etc.

So nope!

 
Democrats, like GG don't do sound bytes.  They get bogged down in technical details that no one has time to care about (ancient example being Jimmy Carter's one and done radio show) while republicans give us two words that invoke a feeling.  Oh sure democrats figure this out and try to replicate, but the notable exceptions that can do this just prove the rule.
Yep, nothing says bogged down in technical details like "trans women are women."

 
Kind of like how the ACA (ObamaCare) was terribly unpopular but each of its major provisions had overwhelming public support.  How Medicare for All is supported by about 55% of the population and a "public option" about 70%.  While public support for stricter gun control has slipped a bit in the past couple of years, it is still supported by the majority of the masses.   It is about 2/3 of the public that when polled said that the government should be doing more to fight climate control.  Over 60% support some form of college debt forgiveness.  Etc., etc.

So nope!
I suspect rock is referring more to some of the cultural stuff. 

 
There's a messaging problem but there also seems to be little cohesion within the party. Moderates are having to deal with progressives pushing their agendas. IMO if the moderates were the clear leaders in the party they'd be in a better place, but the party seems to be hijacked by people like AOC and Omar who are loud, brash and have helped drive people away from the party (IMO). I consider myself a moderate democrat (no problem leaning Republican if I like the candidate) and feel completely demoralized the last few years. Been a long time since a politician really inspired me. 
Moderates are the problem, not the victims.  Moderates are in clear control.  It is why widely supported policies are not pursued.

 
Moderates are the problem, not the victims.  Moderates are in clear control.  It is why widely supported policies are not pursued.
As a moderate on most issues myself, I challenge this. Which widely supported policy could have been pushed through by the Democrats when in power, but was not because moderates opposed it? 

 
I suspect rock is referring more to some of the cultural stuff. 
That mainly, but the economic stuff, too. We're a nation of dynamism when it comes to economics. We work hard, play hard, spend lots, and leave little room for error. The kind of economics that appeals to a Bottomfeeder just doesn't appeal to your average America, who wants a chance to hit it big like the big shots they know. 

No Obamacare cherry-picking is going to save that basic point. 

So nope! 

 
That mainly, but the economic stuff, too. We're a nation of dynamism when it comes to economics. We work hard, play hard, spend lots, and leave little room for error. The kind of economics that appeals to a Bottomfeeder just doesn't appeal to your average America, who wants a chance to hit it big like the big shots they know. 

No Obamacare cherry-picking is going to save that basic point. 

So nope! 
Well I have to challenge this a little. It’s true that the sort of socialism a Bernie Sanders is proposing doesn’t have much popularity with most Americans. But the old fashioned Democratic New Deal/Great Society blueprint, in which capitalism is tinkered with to achieve more equitable results, has always been very popular, as election after election has demonstrated. 

 
My favorite part of that episode was when people tried to walk that back by explaining that they didn't really mean literally defund the police, and then the progressives chimed in with "No, we actually do mean that we should literally defund the police."  That was great writing.
Just one correction: it wasn’t really “progressives” per se; it was a few very radical activists. Most progressives lamely argued that they didn’t mean it literally. Most non-progressive Democrats condemned the whole thing from the get-go. 

 
That mainly, but the economic stuff, too. We're a nation of dynamism when it comes to economics. We work hard, play hard, spend lots, and leave little room for error. The kind of economics that appeals to a Bottomfeeder just doesn't appeal to your average America, who wants a chance to hit it big like the big shots they know. 

No Obamacare cherry-picking is going to save that basic point. 

So nope! 
Competing polls from the same time period disagree

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/08/19/more-americans-oppose-than-favor-the-government-providing-a-universal-basic-income-for-all-adult-citizens/

vs

https://thehill.com/hilltv/what-americas-thinking/512099-poll-majority-of-voters-now-say-the-government-should-have-a/

But I think that my unimaginable idea first introduced in that first FairTax thread (the prebate fits) has been coming one pretty strong.  Not there yet, but my economics of income security and believing that if trusting the market to create the best outcomes then we must trust poor people to be players in the market is gaining.

Lets be clear, 45% in support was unimaginable in 2009, yet alone 2003.  The same growth has been prominent right here on these boards.  So while this won't qualify as a popular policy that moderates thwarted for a few more years, its no longer some lonely island that myself, @roadkill1292, and @Rich Conwaydiscuss pretty much among ourselves.  Or pretty much ignored in Maurile's "What every economist agree on" thread  (70%).

 
Just one correction: it wasn’t really “progressives” per se; it was a few very radical activists. Most progressives lamely argued that they didn’t mean it literally. Most non-progressive Democrats condemned the whole thing from the get-go. 
The slogan is stupid.  The fact that it was attached to democrats at all is evidence that democrats are bad at messaging.  They are bad at getting out what they stand for (in part because they are a big tent), but especially bad at allowing others define their message.

All that being said how we spend such dollars and where diminishing returns makes spending ineffective or even counter productive is a discussion that needs to happen.  But cannot because this stupid slogan makes it political suicide to have the needed discussion.  But that is a technical discussion.  "more police on the street" worked well for Clinton - one of those exceptions. 

 
The "defund the police" moment wasn't a moment where Democrats lost the message. It was when a part of their constituency (urban blacks) were allowed to speak as the Party's voice, a move that surely alerted everybody but urban blacks to what urban blacks wanted vis a vis their membership in the party. 

The Democrats ceded that voice to an aggrieved portion of the Party, and its attachment to Democrats was not accident nor happenstance. They really said, "This is a core group that determines policy within our Party. Hear them." 

 
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Democrats don't have a messaging problem on the economy. They communicate exactly what they mean. It's just they fundamentally don't understand how it works.

June 2021 - Janet Yellen

Yellen said inflation will remain elevated at 3% on a year-over-year basis until about the end of 2021.  :no:

"I personally believe that this represents transitory factors," she said.  :no:

July 2021 - Joe Biden

Some folks have raised worries that this could be a sign of persistent inflation.  But that’s not our view.  Our experts believe and the data shows that most of the price increases we’ve seen are — were expected and expected to be temporary.  :no:

 
The "defund the police" moment wasn't a moment where Democrats lost the message. It was when a part of their constituency (urban blacks) were allowed to speak as the Party's voice, a move that surely alerted everybody but urban blacks to what urban blacks wanted vis a vis their membership in the party. 

The Democrats ceded that voice to an aggrieved portion of the Party, and its attachment to Democrats was not accident nor happenstance. They really said, "This is a core group that determines policy within our Party. Hear them." 


Bingo...they got caught up in the moment, saw it as a political opportunity at that moment...than it backfired...that is not a messaging problem, that is a screw-up.

 
Wow a rare agreement in the Political forum. 

Congratulations, I did not think that was possible.  I swear some of you would argue whether or not pooping in your pants is desirable.

 
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The "defund the police" moment wasn't a moment where Democrats lost the message. It was when a part of their constituency (urban blacks) were allowed to speak as the Party's voice, a move that surely alerted everybody but urban blacks to what urban blacks wanted vis a vis their membership in the party. 

The Democrats ceded that voice to an aggrieved portion of the Party, and its attachment to Democrats was not accident nor happenstance. They really said, "This is a core group that determines policy within our Party. Hear them." 
"Centering the voices of marginalized communities."

 
That mainly, but the economic stuff, too. We're a nation of dynamism when it comes to economics. We work hard, play hard, spend lots, and leave little room for error. The kind of economics that appeals to a Bottomfeeder just doesn't appeal to your average America, who wants a chance to hit it big like the big shots they know. 

No Obamacare cherry-picking is going to save that basic point. 

So nope! 
i would say that there is a lot of room for error, though that is often a feature not bug

 
Immigration Reform
Well this is wrong. Congress attempted immigration reform 3 times in the past 20 years. Each time it was supported by most progressive Democrats, most moderate Democrats, and even a handful of moderate Republicans. It was prevented, each time, by the absolute opposition of hardline Republicans who managed to exert an effective veto through filibuster tactics, control of the House, etc. 

For immigration reform to pass, you need 60 votes in the Senate and a majority in the House, (not to mention a cooperative President.) Republicans have prevented this each time. 

 
The "defund the police" moment wasn't a moment where Democrats lost the message. It was when a part of their constituency (urban blacks) were allowed to speak as the Party's voice, a move that surely alerted everybody but urban blacks to what urban blacks wanted vis a vis their membership in the party. 

The Democrats ceded that voice to an aggrieved portion of the Party, and its attachment to Democrats was not accident nor happenstance. They really said, "This is a core group that determines policy within our Party. Hear them." 
Sorry but this simply is not true. There was NEVER any decision by Democratic leadership to cede anything. These activists spoke up by themselves, without any planning or consultation. The Democratic leadership was horrified from the beginning, including and especially black leadership. In fact the very first prominent politician to condemn the slogan, almost immediately after it became public, was Jim Clyburn. 
So please stop with this revisionist history. That goes for @Boston too. You guys are creating a false reality here. 

 
In fact the very first prominent politician to condemn the slogan, almost immediately after it became public, was Jim Clyburn. 
So what? Where were AOC and Omar? 

And the local politicians that got booed at all their town meetings and got doxxed, etc. 

This was the left flank eating the moderate flank for lunch, au jus, baby. Live it. Love it. She's just a woman. 

 
The "false" reality is that the Democrats decided to "white privilege" their way out of the conversation and leave it to the real, authentic folk to have their say in the matter. All the Democrats decided they were, in Tom Wolfe's words, Roger Too-White on the issue of police violence in inner cities and their inner-city constituents ran with the platform. 

And you're so big on BLM. Where the hell do you think the slogan got started?  

 
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So what? Where were AOC and Omar? 

And the local politicians that got booed at all their town meetings and got doxxed, etc. 

This was the left flank eating the moderate flank for lunch, au jus, baby. Live it. Love it. She's just a woman. 
You used the phrase “the Democrats” in your earlier post, meaning the party leadership. That’s Clyburn, Pelosi, Shumer, Biden, etc. it’s not, and has never been AOC or Omar, anymore that Marjorie Taylor Greene is the face of the Republicans. 

 
You used the phrase “the Democrats” in your earlier post, meaning the party leadership
No, I didn't mean that. You assumed I meant that. Notice the absence of any Democrat contravening the BLM movement when they wanted to defund the police aside from one or two black federal-level Democrats. Nary a word against from the others, never mind the local ones that had to answer to the abolish/defund crowd. In fact, we got political signs, sponsored by the Democratic Party, that read like "In this house, black lives matter" and so on and so forth. They spoke for Dems because Dems ceded the speaking duties to them. 

 
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The "false" reality is that the Democrats decided to "white privilege" their way out of the conversation and leave it to the real, authentic folk to have their say in the matter. All the Democrats decided they were, in Tom Wolfe's words, Roger Too-White on the issue of police violence in inner cities and their inner-city constituents ran with the platform. 

And you're so big on BLM. Where the hell do you think the slogan got started?  
I’m big on BLM as a slogan and a popular movement, I’ve never been big on their supposed “leadership”- they’re radical and stupid. But they didn’t direct the movement, never have. And the Democratic Party didn’t direct “defund the police”. 
 

 
And the Democratic Party didn’t direct “defund the police”
Ceding is not directing. Pretend I have a reason to use words and we won't have so many problems. 

Ceding means that they abstained from comment and let the aggrieved parties speak for them, both locally and nationally. And when they did try to address the aggrieved, they got booed and doxxed. Minneapolis/St. Paul was a great example of that. 

 
No, I didn't mean that. You assumed I meant that. Notice the absence of any Democrat contravening the BLM movement when they wanted to defund the police aside from one or two black federal-level Democrats. Nary a word against from the others, never mind the local ones that had to answer to the abolish/defund crowd. In fact, we got political signs, sponsored by the Democratic Party, that read like "In this house, black lives matter" and so on and so forth. They spoke for Dems because Dems ceded the speaking duties to them. 
Because Democrats are terrified of criticizing radical leftists, just as Republicans are terrified of criticizing radical rightists. They shouldn’t be, and a few aren’t. But most of our politicians  are ####### cowards and it makes me sick. 
 

However that’s not the same as “ceding the speaking duties.” Come on that’s just silly. 

 
However that’s not the same as “ceding the speaking duties.” Come on that’s just silly. 
I would say pretty much everybody but Kinzinger, Gonzalez, and Cheney pretty much ceded the Republican Party to Trump and the crazies on their right flank. I'd have no problem saying that. Can't figure out why the Democratic silence regarding the issue at hand isn't the same thing. 

 
We had a war of ideas around the time George Floyd was murdered and then later on January 6th. Each side of the political spectrum ceded its reasonable reason for being to the extreme wing nuts within their party. A whole status quo way of sociopolitical life was indefensible somehow to both parties, and it went without almost question that they would cede power to the flanks. They crumbled like academia crumbled in '68. Unable to defend their own institutions, the barbarians stormed and, to a degree, took over the institutions. Sorry. 

That's what should be worrisome. Not some crappy messaging concern. 

 
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Anyhow, and this goes back to the theme of this thread: it doesn’t matter. The Democrats screwed this up. I say it’s because of poor messaging, @rockaction says it’s because of intrinsic problems within the Democratic Party. Truthfully we’re probably both right. 

But here’s the reality: right now there are a whole lot of voters who believe that the Democratic Party has become too leftist. Whether this is actually true, or a result of poor messaging, doesn’t really matter, because until this is fixed Democrats are going to lose elections. And IMO, the only way to fix it is for some brave moderate and centrist Democrats to stand up and say “enough with the bull####.” Will they? I don’t know. 

 

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