Citizens United (overturned) or Term Limits - which would benefit our country more? (3 Viewers)

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Northrup Grumman employs 85,000 people according to Google.  If you think politics should be about people, it seems like those people might want the opportunity to participate.

Northrup Grumman's employees can already participate, just like employees of every other company and people that aren't employed at all.*  

*Northrup Grumman is actually a pretty controversial example because there is probably an enhanced danger of corruption when we're talking about businesses that earn substantial money from government contracts.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I started this as I felt both are the most important.  I was trying to get help discussing which one is most important.

Sorry, I agree that's a good thought. I'll do a follow up post.

 

[JAA]

Northrup Grumman's employees can already participate, just like employees of every other company and people that aren't employed at all.*  

*Northrup Grumman is actually a pretty controversial example because there is probably an enhanced danger of corruption when we're talking about businesses that earn substantial money from government contracts.

Ding, ding, ding

What % of Northrop is owned by employees?  What % of it is owned by individual US citizens?  Im willing to bet I am on the right side of the numbers.  FWIW the data is here:  https://finance.yahoo.com/news/owns-most-northrop-grumman-corporation-135704206.html

As you can see, institutional investors own 82.3% of Northrop Grumman

...

When multiple institutions own a stock, there’s always a risk that they are in a ‘crowded trade’. When such a trade goes wrong, multiple parties may compete to sell stock fast.

...

General Public Ownership

The general public holds a 10.2% stake in NOC. This size of ownership, while considerable, may not be enough to change company policy if the decision is not in sync with other large shareholders.

People dont own Northrop, corporations own Northrop.  Northrop wants more corporations to buy stock.  These type of companies have huge lobby's.

In addition, defense contractors dont truly sell to the American people.  I could see an argument that the US military represents the people, but I dont think it holds any water.

In conclusion, Northrop Grumman does not act for the good of the public.  Northrop acts in the best interest of its share holders, which are ~80% other companies.

 

[jon_mx]

First, does anyone believe either of these should not be changed?

Second, please vote on which you would rather have changed in our country.

I believe if we could get both of these changed our country would make a tremendous positive change.  That said, im torn on which I would choose first.  I guess it would be term limits as that would make it harder for Big Business to interfere, but ultimately we need both to help get money out of politics.

I believe in citizens rights to organize and free speech.  Citizen United was the most important free speech ruling of the 20th century.  Campaign Finance Reform was an absolute assault on our rights.  The reasoning for the ruling was not perfect, but the outcome was necessary if we value free speech rights. 

 

[JAA]

I believe in citizens rights to organize and free speech.  Citizen United was the most important free speech ruling of the 20th century.  Campaign Finance Reform was an absolute assault on our rights.  The reasoning for the ruling was not perfect, but the outcome was necessary if we value free speech rights. 

How do you propose we elicit change?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

About term limits, I have always been for them. However given what's happened in the last 3 years or so I've been thankful there are experienced leaders in Congress. I think having a host of people with 2-3 terms only as seniority would be chaotic and only serve to weaken Congress (even further). The downside of that is guess folks like McConnell, but then it's entirely possible that the Senate GOP could name someone even worse in his stead.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Ding, ding, ding

What % of Northrop is owned by employees?  What % of it is owned by individual US citizens?  Im willing to bet I am on the right side of the numbers.  FWIW the data is here:  https://finance.yahoo.com/news/owns-most-northrop-grumman-corporation-135704206.html

People dont own Northrop, corporations own Northrop.  Northrop wants more corporations to buy stock.  These type of companies have huge lobby's.

In addition, defense contractors dont truly sell to the American people.  I could see an argument that the US military represents the people, but I dont think it holds any water.

In conclusion, Northrop Grumman does not act for the good of the public.  Northrop acts in the best interest of its share holders, which are ~80% other companies.

Unlike the classic tale its not turtles all the way down.  At some point this lands on people owning it, individually or in concert with other people.

 

[JAA]

More:  https://abcn.ws/2T8vAx0

 

[JAA]

Unlike the classic tale its not turtles all the way down.  At some point this lands on people owning it, individually or in concert with other people.

Not really.

Insurance companies can invest premiums in the markets:  https://www.doughroller.net/insurance/life-insurance/shouldnt-life-insurance-companies-all-be-bankrupt/

That is why insurance companies invest the premiums in stocks, bonds, and other interest-bearing accounts. From this investment income, an insurancecompany can pay claims, commissions, and administrative costs while otherwise financing its operation.

Think about that. That is not Americans, that is the money you are paying in the event of catastrophe. Should the market crash?  Your policy would be invalidated. It is not FDIC insured. 

Remember AIG being propped up in the latest crash?  That’s who I have for my life insurance.  Had they not been propped up I lose my 20 years paying into a 30 year policy.

Capitalism no longer supports the public good.  Publicly traded companies are not owned by long term investing citizens. They are owned by huge companies, not all of which are even based in the US. They don’t care about the citizens of this country. They are not macro thinkers. 

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Not really.

Insurance companies can invest premiums in the markets:  https://www.doughroller.net/insurance/life-insurance/shouldnt-life-insurance-companies-all-be-bankrupt/

Think about that. That is not Americans, that is the money you are paying in the event of catastrophe. Should the market crash?  Your policy would be invalidated. It is not FDIC insured. 

Remember AIG being propped up in the latest crash?  That’s who I have for my life insurance.  Had they not been propped up I lose my 20 years paying into a 30 year policy.

Capitalism no longer supports the public good.  Publicly traded companies are not owned by long term investing citizens. They are owned by huge companies, not all of which are even based in the US. They don’t care about the citizens of this country. They are not macro thinkers. 

And don't you think that at some point those companies are owned by people?

https://www.americanrhetoric.com/MovieSpeeches/moviespeechnetwork4.html

 

[JAA]

And don't you think that at some point those companies are owned by people?

https://www.americanrhetoric.com/MovieSpeeches/moviespeechnetwork4.html

Yes they are, but which people and what are their motivations?  It does matter where in the chain these people are. Do retirees care that a bunch of fund managers just dumped Ford stock which caused a 10% drop in stock price and some Ford VP has to lay off 3k people?  Do those retirees even know that in order for them to make their 20% retirement return all those people needed to be laid off?  You also aren’t thinking about the index fund manager motivations and how they get their bonuses.

Im not trying to be a jerk here, but it feels like people aren’t thinking this through. I am trying to explain it, but I’m not doing a good job of getting my points across.

Point is, get businesses out of politics. 

 

[JAA]

Company #2

- Wells Fargo 

 

[RedmondLonghorn]

Northrup Grumman's employees can already participate, just like employees of every other company and people that aren't employed at all.*  

*Northrup Grumman is actually a pretty controversial example because there is probably an enhanced danger of corruption when we're talking about businesses that earn substantial money from government contracts.

Exactly this, on both points.

If I could pick just one industry/sector that should not be allowed to lobby, it would be Aerospace/Defense.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

What % of Northrop is owned by employees?

By its own employees? Hopefully not very much. Northrop employees already have a lot riding on Northrop's success. Whatever investments they have should probably be diversified into non-Northrop holdings.

 

[Rove!]

Neither...it’s more a question of what will hurt us least....

 

[JAA]

Neither...it’s more a question of what will hurt us least....

I don’t understand your position?  Can you explain further why you don’t believe these are important and which ones you think are more important?