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Black lives matter (3 Viewers)

These continual protests, which are showing no sign of winding down (though the riots and looting absolutely have) are just amazing. in London thousands are kneeling. 

This really does appear to be a sea change. I read a conservative editorial the other day that dismissed protests as meaningless. I think that’s very wrong. 

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
Yes, I think it's important to understand that the meaningful part of Brees's statement wasn't his apology for offending people. (Offending people isn't inherently inappropriate -- it is often necessary.) The meaningful part was his apology for being wrong about the notion that Kaepernick was disrespecting the flag.

I'm not sure what comparable error Kaepernick is thought to have made.
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Serious question because I'm not a Kaep flag historian.  His kneeling had nothing to do with the flag of the USA?

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
As Drew Brees will tell you, this isn't how things went down. Kaepernick did not disrespect the flag.

I don't blame you for misunderstanding that. So, initially, did Drew Brees. Sometimes good people have fallible perceptions. Ideally, we will all remain somewhat open to looking at things from different angles and gaining new perspectives.
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But he did disrespect yhe flag.  That was how he got attention to his issue.  It was not the point, but it waa his method.  

 
jon_mx said:
But he did disrespect yhe flag.  That was how he got attention to his issue.  It was not the point, but it waa his method.  
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To some, he disrespected the flag the same way Christians disrespect God every week: by kneeling.

To others, however, kneeling is not inherently disrespectful.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
It was promoting -- not denigrating -- what the American flag stands for: Justice, Equality, and Whatnot.
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I'm not following.

He was kneeling to promote what the flag stands for?  Is this real?

Here's a quote from Kaepernick:  "“I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color,” Kaepernick told NFL Mediaafter Friday’s game.  Granted I googled for all of 2 minutes, but I googled what you wrote and didn't find a quote that supported that.

 
djmich said:
Here's a quote from Kaepernick:  "“I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color,” Kaepernick told NFL Mediaafter Friday’s game.  Granted I googled for all of 2 minutes, but I googled what you wrote and didn't find a quote that supported that.
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Does the American flag stand for oppressing black people and people of color, or does it stand for the opposite of that: liberty and equality under the law?

I'll grant that this country has a checkered history (and an imperfect present), but as an optimist, I'll take those latter ideals -- precisely the ideals that Kaepernick was agitating for.

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
Does the American flag stand for oppressing black people and people of color, or does it stand for the opposite of that: liberty and equality under the law?

I'll grant that this country has a checkered history, but as an optimist, I'll take those latter ideals -- precisely the ideals that Kaepernick was agitating for.
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Agreed but based on Kaepernick’s statement you are disagreeing with him. He is saying that the flag DOES stand for oppressing black people and people of color. 

 
It’s a complicated issue. When a famous abolitionist, William Lloyd Garrison. set fire to a copy of the Constitution in 1844, was he disrespecting the document or was he protesting that we weren’t living up to its ideals? The answer is, well, both. What he was doing was making a protest so shocking that everyone would take notice. And they did. 

 
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Maurile Tremblay said:
To some, he disrespected the flag the same way Christians disrespect God every week: by kneeling.

To others, however, kneeling is not inherently disrespectful.
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Proper etiquette for respecting the flag during the anthem is established in is US Code.  It is not really a matter of just what some think.  

 
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jon_mx said:
Proper etiquette for respecting is established in is US Code.  It is not really a matter of just what some think.  
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As a forward thinking middle of the road conservative I would think you wouldn't want the government telling us what is proper to do

 
General Malaise said:
Kaep took the time to learn from a well respected military vet on how to protest the flag respectfully.  He did so to protest police brutality against people of color.  He has nothing to apologize for.  

I wish more of our citizens had as much anguish and outrage over the issue of police brutality than they do over athletes kneeling during the anthem.  That is the biggest area of disgust for me.  We have a right to peaceful protest in this country.  Police murdering black men should be something that makes all of our collective blood boil over.  
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That is fine, but many vets were offended by it, so how could it have hurt to clarified what he meant and apologize to anyone who was offended?  That would have been the classy thing to do.  Brees apologize to those he offended; Kaepernick did not.  That is the difference. (whether either or both needed to is irrelevant, as people who are not wrong apologize all the time, because it is the decent thing to do when you offend a lot of people)

Maurile Tremblay said:
I don't think I'm in a position to judge each person's overall character. But if we were in a debate club or something and had to argue one side or the other, I think I might prefer to be assigned the pro-Kaepernick side. He risked (and received) ostracization by being a lone voice among his peers, making a sacrifice for his principles before the rest of us were ready to join him, instead of going along with the crowd.

They both seem like good people and good role models in their own ways.
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I don't see any sacrifice that he made, although I know that spin is out there, to make him a martyr who sacrificed his NFL career for the greater good. I have never bought that narrative.  I see a guy who was no longer an NFL starter, knew his name was fading as far as being relevant at all, and latched on to a cause to keep his name in the headlines.  And to his credit, it worked like a charm. 

 
jon_mx said:
Proper etiquette for respecting the flag during the anthem is established in is US Code.  It is not really a matter of just what some think.  
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Proper etiquette for the flag is in that code...many of the people who complained most about the kneeling don’t practice proper flag etiquette on their own.

 
Ghost Rider said:
That is fine, but many vets were offended by it, so how could it have hurt to clarified what he meant and apologize to anyone who was offended?  That would have been the classy thing to do.  Brees apologize to those he offended; Kaepernick did not.  That is the difference. (whether either or both needed to is irrelevant, as people who are not wrong apologize all the time, because it is the decent thing to do when you offend a lot of people)
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Yep.  Always easy in hindsight, but Kaep could have handled it 100% better.  He actually still can.  He just has zero interest in backing off his hardened left stance in order to gain more support and truly progress his cause.

 
Ghost Rider said:
I don't see any sacrifice that he made, although I know that spin is out there, to make him a martyr who sacrificed his NFL career for the greater good. I have never bought that narrative.  I see a guy who was no longer an NFL starter, knew his name was fading as far as being relevant at all, and latched on to a cause to keep his name in the headlines.  And to his credit it worked like a charm. 
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Well that is, unless he wants to play football in the NFL.

 
timschochet said:
Beyond that, enforced etiquette for anything seems rather anti American. doesn’t it? 
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It is not a law which is for enforcement.  It just outlinee how to properly show respect.   If you intentionally deviate fron that as a form of protest, you are showing disrepect.  MT and everyone can argue and tell me i am wrong, but this is clearcut otherwise. 

 
djmich said:
If its a symbol of our racist past (because our past is racist and it is our symbol) to many of our citizens...then how can you expect them to feel comfortable living with it?
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The Confederate flag represents a time when blacks lived under slavery. The United States flag represents a nation which sacrificed many of its own citizens to abolish slavery. 

 
jon_mx said:
It is not a law which is for enforcement.  It just outlinee how to properly show respect.   If you intentionally deviate fron that as a form of protest, you are showing disrepect.  MT and everyone can argue and tell me i am wrong, but this is clearcut otherwise. 
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The idea of having to “properly show respect” seems anti-American, doesn’t it? 

 
Ghost Rider said:
He doesn't.  He has made that perfectly clear with his actions (which usually speaker louder than words). 
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Are you sure about this? I’m not convinced. I think that, much like Muhammad Ali during his hiatus from boxing, Kaepernick would very much like to play again, but without having to apologize for his convictions. 

 
djmich said:
How long do you all think before the US Flag goes the way of the Confederate Flag?  10 years?
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I hope not, but it depends on what we do here - we can either get mad about the method of protest that people are using or we can seriously examine the reasons behind why they're protesting and try to do something about that. IMO acknowledging that there are some real issues that are causing some Americans to take such a controversial stance and working together to try to fix them would be the best strategy for restoring respect for the symbols of our nation from all of its citizens. 

 
timschochet said:
The idea of having to “properly show respect” seems anti-American, doesn’t it? 
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And don’t get me wrong, I show respect to the flag all the time, and have taught my children to do the same. But that being said, I kind of cringe at the notion that (a) there is a “proper” way to do so, and (b) that others may judge me and condemn me if I choose not to practice that “proper” way. That’s not really what this county is supposed to be about. In fact, it’s why I reject the notion of nationalism.

 
timschochet said:
Are you sure about this? I’m not convinced. I think that, much like Muhammad Ali during his hiatus from boxing, Kaepernick would very much like to play again, but without having to apologize for his convictions. 
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None of us can be 100% sure, but from wearing a Castro shirt in Miami to his girlfriend basically calling the Ravens owner a slaveowner to the fiasco he turned last year's try-out into (along with the NFL, both were at fault on that one), he has gone out of his way to make it as difficult as possible to get signed.  Plus, he has been turned into a martyr by some, and if he returns to the NFL and either stinks it up as a starter or never gets back into a starting lineup, his rep gets dinged, and he knows it.  The best way for his rep (with those who buy that his intentions are completely honorable across the board) to remain intact and unblemished is to never play in the NFL again. 

 
Ghost Rider said:
None of us can be 100% sure, but from wearing a Castro shirt in Miami to his girlfriend basically calling the Ravens owner a slaveowner to the fiasco he turned last year's try-out into (along with the NFL, both were at fault on that one), he has gone out of his way to make it as difficult as possible to get signed.  Plus, he has been turned into a martyr by some, and if he returns to the NFL and either stinks it up as a starter or never gets back into a starting lineup, his rep gets dinged, and he knows it.  The best way for his rep (with those who buy that his intentions are completely honorable across the board) to remain intact and unblemished is to never play in the NFL again. 
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To be honest...my own view of Kaepernick is that he’s kind of a well meaning idiot. 

 
timschochet said:
The Confederate flag represents a time when blacks lived under slavery. The United States flag represents a nation which sacrificed many of its own citizens to abolish slavery. 
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Both of those are accurate statements but as I'm sure you know missing many other "representations".  I think the representation of the US flag as you present it is a limited white persons view.

Lets not speculate, lets take the words of a black man that is representing (through their support) millions including large corporations.  "“I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color,”

Thats what the flag stands for to many black people.  How do you remove that taint once applied?

 
timschochet said:
To be honest...my own view of Kaepernick is that he’s kind of a well meaning idiot. 
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I have to quote this because I can't laugh and shake hands emoji at the same time.

He is well meaning in that he has blinders on for his cause and his cause is a good one.  He could be doing this so much better though.

 
djmich said:
Both of those are accurate statements but as I'm sure you know missing many other "representations".  I think the representation of the US flag as you present it is a limited white persons view.

Lets not speculate, lets take the words of a black man that is representing (through their support) millions including large corporations.  "“I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color,”

Thats what the flag stands for to many black people.  How do you remove that taint once applied?
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I disagree with Mr. Kaepernick. I don’t regard my view of the flag as a “limited white man’s view” (I suspect you don’t either.) See the film Glory for what I think of that.

 
timschochet said:
I disagree with Mr. Kaepernick. I don’t regard my view of the flag as a “limited white man’s view” (I suspect you don’t either.) See the film Glory for what I think of that.
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I saw Glory, good flick.  I think your view is a well supported by white people view.  I'm frankly not sure about black peoples view though.  I don't know where to take this other than confirming that LOTS of people agree with Kaepernick (black and white), that is fact and therefore so is the taint on the flag in the view of these people and the eventual outcome in that it cannot be our symbol.

My view...We are not perfect.  We will never be perfect.  Never.  There will be another George Floyd, and another and another.  There will be lots of white people unjustly killed by police too.  By default, using Kaepernicks logic we really can't have a symbol that represents our unity....ever.  Has he published his criteria by which he would stand for the flag??

In my view the only path forward would be to rally around the flag for what it can be and what we want it to represent going forward.  Acknowledge that it hasn't always lived up to the standards we wanted in the past AND it still doesn't today...but the people living underneath it have always been striving to make the country better for all of its citizens.  Thats not the direction we're heading, the US flag is heading for the graveyard of symbols of racism and oppression.

:salute:

 
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jon_mx said:
Proper etiquette for respecting the flag during the anthem is established in is US Code.  It is not really a matter of just what some think.  
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Solid argument, regardless of the rebuttals.  I like where kaps heart is at but perhaps there was a better way. The message was lost because the flag is a symbol of pride and rather than have a discussion about police violence it was a pissing match over how American you are. 

 
jon_mx said:
Proper etiquette for respecting the flag during the anthem is established in is US Code.  It is not really a matter of just what some think.  
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It should be pointed out that the anthem's tune is reportedly an old drinking song. Shouldn't we all have a beer in our hand, then?

 
jon_mx said:
Proper etiquette for respecting the flag during the anthem is established in is US Code.  It is not really a matter of just what some think.  
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Why isn't there such a concern for other aspects of US Flag Code from The Right.  A call for etiquette in regards to the flag rings very hollow when those(not saying you) that are trying to preserve the sanctity of the flag when protests such as Kaep's come down the pike are remarkably quiet when it comes to just about every other ignoring of Flag Code. 

 
It continues to baffle me that the people pounding their chests over "disrespecting the flag" by kneeling aren't all up in arms over disrespect via leaving it out in the rain, dragging it around on the back of a F-350 (brass nuts hanging off the toe hitch), wearing it as a piece of clothing or lining your driveway with those little ones on the wooden sticks.  I NEVER hear people whining about that....ALL of that is just as disrespectful as kneeling, by yourself, during the anthem.  Of course the lack of self awareness it takes not to understand "you can protest as long as you do it this specific way at this specific time" kind of explains the above, but I do find it funny in a very hollow way.

 
I think that I have realized why the term "all lives matter" is met with resistance from those who are pushing "black lives matter".

I originally went to this video to really hear the reason and tear it apart because, OF COURSE....ALL LIVES MATTER....how can anyone deny that?

Unfortunately (or fortunately) for me, Mr. Kutcher's explanation of it made me think and realize that, yes, while all lives DO matter....I now understand why people are pushing "black lives matter" and I am probably much less likely to roll my eyes when I hear it....and maybe even explain it to someone else.

 
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Kal El said:
It was never about the flag, or the troops, for that matter. It was about stopping police brutality.
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Then don't protest it.

If your beef is with Starbucks....don't protest McDonald's.

Local police departments have not been nationalized and are not controlled at the national level.
Police departments just like sanitation departments, are controlled at the local level.....as these protests have put under a GLARING light.
You have a problem with a police department....protest that local police department.

If your protest calls for kneeling for the flag to get attention about police brutality....then why not kneel for the flag when Starbucks screws up your order. or when waste management constantly fails to pick up your bin?

Protesting the US flag should be for problems controlled at the national level.

 
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