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Are T & Ps the New Whipping Phrase? (1 Viewer)

Rattle and Hum

Rattle and Hum

Footballguy
Admittedly I'm not the most (or least) PC person. Seeing this comment thrown around as it relates to gun control in various verbiage: "Maybe we need more T&Ps to fix the problem" or "More T&Ps are not going to do anything to fix gun violence so just stop". It seems like projection with a bias towards rhetoric to me but some seem very serious about this being a worthwhile position when advocating for deterrents to gun violence. I'd like to get a temperature on this and maybe understand the mentality behind it. If one wishes for more gun control wouldn't it make more sense to simply advocate for that without admonishing those that offer heartfelt T&Ps? Is it now rude to share T&Ps as a form of expression or towards someone you may not know who has experienced loss?

Is it the that people don't see T & Ps as helping any way so there is no validity in sharing?

Is there a political bias towards this train of thought?

Is it the "prayer" part that's the issue?

Is it because those that some who want less gun violence don't care about the the attitudes of people who choose to share their personal T&Ps towards a tragic violent gun event, the victims, and society's pain?

Does this T&P admonishment extend to cancer, homelessness, natural death, personal losses, etc. to those who take issue with T&Ps and gun violence?

 
thoughts and prayers are the opposite of meaningful real-world action.   ask the parents of kids killed in mass shootings whether they take solace in thoughts and prayers.  or you could just listen to what they say.   the mother of a son who survived the vegas mass shooting only to be gunned down in thousand oaks:  ""I don't want prayers. I don't want thoughts. I WANT GUN CONTROL."

Or, for all of the Christians in the room:   "Faith without works is dead."  James 2:14-26.  Thoughts and prayers are an empty platitude and an insult to the victims and their families.   

 
identikit said:
I guess i'm in the 10% then.

Serious, to me.
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"God" does not exist and your insistence on praying towards that non-existent deity to fix mankind's problems just adds to the problems. Praying just multiplies any problem exponentially because nothing positively constructive is being done by those folks praying. Since when has "god" ever intervened on anyone's positive behalf? What a freakin joke.

 
Ruffrodys05 said:
"God" does not exist and your insistence on praying towards that non-existent deity to fix mankind's problems just adds to the problems. Praying just multiplies any problem exponentially because nothing positively constructive is being done by those folks praying. Since when has "god" ever intervened on anyone's positive behalf? What a freakin joke.
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T & P for you....

 
Ruffrodys05 said:
"God" does not exist and your insistence on praying towards that non-existent deity to fix mankind's problems just adds to the problems. Praying just multiplies any problem exponentially because nothing positively constructive is being done by those folks praying. Since when has "god" ever intervened on anyone's positive behalf? What a freakin joke.
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Even if you will allow that God may exist, Christian teachings specifically chastise believers' empty prayers when not coupled by actual works.   Let's look at Marco Rubio, who represents a state where 17 children were murdered in one school shooting.  Not only did he offer "thoughts and prayers" but he refused to meet with the victims after they had formed March for Our Lives and refused to take a pledge refusing more NRA lobbyist money.   He's traded $3.3 million in NRA money for the lives of children he supposedly represents.  He will not support reasonable gun control legislation.   In return, he offers "thoughts and prayers."   I hope there is a God, because if so according to scripture he will burn in Hell.

 
I think there is a difference between a person expressing to you directly (whether in person or on line) that he is keeping you in his thoughts and prayers when you are suffering, and a person making a general statement to the public that he is keeping some group of people in his thoughts and prayers, as the latter appears less about an actual expression of compassion to someone in need and more about promoting oneself as compassionate. By way of example, I think the T&P expressions made here in the FFA to a poster when he shares some struggle or tragic situation are generally very appreciated and comforting. But when someone posts a T&P message on FB for the people of the Bahamas when no one from the Bahamas will ever see the post, it seems more about the person making the post. That said, it’s almost always harmless and often serves to raise awareness, which is a good thing.

 
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bigbottom said:
I think there is a difference between a person expressing to you directly (whether in person or on line) that he is keeping you in his thoughts and prayers when you are suffering, and a person making a general statement to the public that he is keeping some group of people in his thoughts and prayers, as the latter appears less about an actual expression of compassion to someone in need and more about promoting oneself as compassionate. By way of example, I think the T&P expressions made here in the FFA to a poster when he shares some struggle or tragic situation are generally very appreciated and comforting. But when someone posts a T&P message on FB for the people of the Bahamas when no one from the Bahamas will ever see the post, it seems more about the person making the post. That said, it’s almost always harmless and often serves to raise awareness, which is a good thing.
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well said.   I never meant to say that sometimes thoughts and prayers aren't heartfelt.  But even then, there is never a time that there is nothing else you can do.   The participation in your charity work, for example, shows that the thoughts and prayers are also accompanied by action, where possible.   When someone in a position of authority, like a Marco Rubio, offers thoughts and prayers but no accompanying actions, they are an affront and an insult.

 
the rover said:
well said.   I never meant to say that sometimes thoughts and prayers aren't heartfelt.  But even then, there is never a time that there is nothing else you can do.   The participation in your charity work, for example, shows that the thoughts and prayers are also accompanied by action, where possible.   When someone in a position of authority, like a Marco Rubio, offers thoughts and prayers but no accompanying actions, they are an affront and an insult.
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There are accompanying actions, they just foster more mass shootings.

 
Most people aren’t making fun of thoughts and prayers in general. They’re making fun of politicians who offer thoughts and prayers as their primary solution to gun violence. After a mass shooting, many legislators offer thoughts and prayers, but no actual legislation.

If you’re a priest, yes, give us your prayers. If you are a member of Congress, pass some freaking laws!!

At least that’s my read on the situation.

 
I believe valid arguments are important to support one's views.

"In effect, an argument is valid if the truth of the premises logically guarantees the truth of the conclusion. The following argument is valid, because it is impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion nevertheless to be false"

So let's test this,

1) Gun violence occurs at an alarming rate. Many people publicly offer their thoughts & prayers as a way to express how they will mentally process these violent acts. T&Ps do not have an immediate affect gun violence. Therefore, gun violence will decrease if people stop publicly sharing their "T & Ps",. - not valid.

2) Gun violence occurs at an alarming rate. Many people publicly offer their thoughts & prayers as a way to express how they will mentally process these violent acts. T&Ps do not have an immediate affect gun violence. Therefore, people publicly sharing their "T & Ps" will not lead to reduced gun violence. -possibly valid.**

3) Gun violence occurs at an alarming rate. Many people publicly offer their thoughts & prayers as a way to express how they will mentally process these violent acts. Some people are frustrated by those who publicly share their T&Ps. Some people feel the sharing of T&Ps is empty and lacks action. Some others are offended with "prayers" which are conveyed in someone's T&Ps declaration because it implies the existence of a deity. The amount of people who dislike public T&Ps declarations is statistically significant. Therefore, People should stop offering their T&Ps regarding gun violence..  - I'm not qualified to assess the validity

**As brought up above, this sharing does bring awareness to the issue. Reflection and personal communication with one's deity of choice may lead to future action by that individual. Let's face it, we all come to the table with our baggage & ideas from our personal past exposure to life and aren't all ready to take action right away. The action I'm suggesting that could be taken is voting differently, contacting lawmakers, quitting groups that promote laws supporting weapons of violence, joining groups that look for actionable other solutions, etc. I guess I've talked myself out of seeing the second example as being a valid argument.

I think the Rubio example is a great example of inaction by one individual who may be able to take action. We could debate how much action is practical under our political system which is sad but is probably not going to be resolved in this thread.

Should the people wishing to express their T&Ps be silenced by those in #3 above? If so, what should the T&Ps be replaced with, if anything?

Let my quest for understanding continue.

 
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Rattle and Hum said:
So let's test this,

1) Gun violence will decrease if people stop publicly sharing their "T & Ps",. - not valid.

2) People publicly sharing their "T & Ps" will not lead to reduced gun violence. -possibly valid.**
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Strictly speaking, those aren’t arguments; they’re just statements. They can’t be logically valid or invalid.

 
People just looking for something to be upset about.

Won't be long and nobody will interact with each other out of fear of offending. 

I don't give thoughts and prayers to incidents or people. I don't need anyone else to know I'm doing it but me. They're my thoughts. (I had impure thoughts about our high school Spanish teacher and didn't share those with her either)

 
KCitons said:
You seem to be a bitter person. Someone should send some thoughts and prayers your way. (not me, but somebody)
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I'm not bitter at all. I'm not remotely concerned what others think I need. I dont want your, or anyones T & P's. Thanx. I hope your holiday was grand and your family and friends are safe and sound. Peace❣🤟💥

 
The problem with T&P is that it is done INSTEAD of solving the problem (aka doing nothing). It is literally the least that could be done. I don't think anyone would have a problem with "T & P, and here is some legislation we are working on.....".

 
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I don't think it's a hollow gesture at all. I think there are layers to the disgust that people feel regarding it, and it's generally coastal liberals that hate the phrase. It's sort of shorthand, much like those bumper stickers a while back that said "I ####### love science." A slogan signaled a lot about many different socioeconomic and political things under the surface.  

 
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Encumbrance said:
I don't think it's a hollow gesture at all. I think there are layers to the disgust that people feel regarding it, and it's generally coastal liberals that hate the phrase. It's sort of shorthand, much like those bumper stickers a while back that said "I ####### love science." A slogan signaled a lot about many different socioeconomic and political things under the surface.  
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Please respond to my post and James 2:14-26

 
zoonation said:
Thoughts and Prayers are able to effect outcomes exactly the same way in the real world:  not at all.  
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But why single out the T&Ps? Why not be frustrated with those that proclaim things like "that's horrible, terrible, so sad, heart breaking, no words, etc" when one of these incidents occur. All of these comments do not have action behind them or foster solutions. 

 
the rover said:
Please respond to my post and James 2:14-26
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I'll do that as soon as you'll let me quote Leviticus as authority in a debate about homosexuality and the Christian religion. 

As far as hollow gestures go, that wasn't really my point, so I personalized it and said "I don't find it meaningless." My larger point was inaptly trying to say that there are a whole lot more sociopolitical issues going into the real hatred of the thoughts and prayers.

 
Encumbrance said:
I'll do that as soon as you'll let me quote Leviticus as authority in a debate about homosexuality and the Christian religion. 

As far as hollow gestures go, that wasn't really my point, so I personalized it and said "I don't find it meaningless." My larger point was inaptly trying to say that there are a whole lot more sociopolitical issues going into the real hatred of the thoughts and prayers.
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perhaps it's that people think that thoughts and prayers are empty, hypocritical gestures.

 
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