The Death/Loss Of Religion In America (1 Viewer)

[AAABatteries]

No reason to be coy, especially if maximizing believers is one of his goals.

I'm reading the bible for the first time this year so I'm no expert, but this doesn't seem like it's one of His goals. Mathew's gospel talks about the narrow road and that few people can find it, while the road to Hell is wide and easy to find.

My Bible is rusty, been awhile since Catholic School but I don't recall taking that as the road is narrow because God doesn't want many believers but the road is narrow because it is a difficult one to walk. It's much easier to be selfish, greedy, cruel, self-centered, etc.

That’s my major problem with Christianity- I can be selfish, greedy, cruel, self-centered, etc. but still go to heaven - while the person who actually helps people and is a good earthly person goes to hell.

I believe you've said you attend Andy Stanley's church? Is this how he preaches the Biblical story?

Funny thing is Stanley gets a lot of grief about rarely discussing salvation and deeper theological issues in depth. But I’m not aware of any preacher who doesn’t teach that the horrible person who had a deathbed conversion goes to heaven while the most charitable person who doesn’t accept Christ goes to hell.

Along those lines, the 10 year old who never has the gospel preached to him goes to hell. The pedophile priest goes to heaven.

Now these are theological questions and don’t really answer the OP - my answer to that is close to what Smails says - the amount of bad done by people in religions overshadows the good done by religion and those in it. And if we expanded this beyond the US I think it’s even more evident. The US has mellowed on the legalism and the punishment for non-believers - globally not so much.

 

[AAABatteries]

Further, on Stanley, if his “version” of Christianity were more pervasive I would vote differently and say it’s a net positive.

ETA - here’s an example of one of the controversial items that Stanley has been a part of.

Andy Stanley’s ‘Unconditional’ Contradiction

The Atlanta-area pastor has said he affirms a New Testament sexual ethic, but his words and deeds have muddled that message.

www.christianitytoday.com

 

[Coach Beard]

To me - these are the real reasons there is a death/loss of religion.

If someone reads a history book or three, someone might think that organized religion does significantly more harm than good.

History books may not cover Joel Osteen's wealth, the history of sexual abuse, etc, the exorcism rituals with homosexuals, etc depending on when they were written. Sure there is a lot of good with religion. That's not being questioned. But is it offset with the bad enough to push people away? We have more people who are spiritual back away from religion. I think the 4 things I raised have a lot to do with it. If not - what's changed in the last 1/2 century to cause the shift? What are the reasons if not some of what I proposed? Evolution vs creation by God is not a new argument. Faith vs empirical evidence isn't either. Been around forever.

Re: the Christian church in the United States over the last 50 years… the Christian church as an institution hasn’t really reconciled with a society showing interest in treating women as equals. Individual churches on a local level have reconciled with this movement, but nationally churches have resisted it. Which left them further behind and resistant when subsequent rights movements broke out.

So while American society as a whole has created a broader, deeper talent pool for ideas and leadership by including women, people of color, immigrants, people of non-straight sexual preferences, the Christian church is largely missing out on those people.

And this is on a much smaller scale, but there’s a small subset of Christianity that has chosen to not reconcile with the modern world and treat government, education, science, and media as enemies of the church. Those subsets are getting louder as the share of Christians gets smaller.

 

[AAABatteries]

To me - these are the real reasons there is a death/loss of religion.

If someone reads a history book or three, someone might think that organized religion does significantly more harm than good.

History books may not cover Joel Osteen's wealth, the history of sexual abuse, etc, the exorcism rituals with homosexuals, etc depending on when they were written. Sure there is a lot of good with religion. That's not being questioned. But is it offset with the bad enough to push people away? We have more people who are spiritual back away from religion. I think the 4 things I raised have a lot to do with it. If not - what's changed in the last 1/2 century to cause the shift? What are the reasons if not some of what I proposed? Evolution vs creation by God is not a new argument. Faith vs empirical evidence isn't either. Been around forever.

Re: the Christian church in the United States over the last 50 years… the Christian church as an institution hasn’t really reconciled with a society showing interest in treating women as equals. Individual churches on a local level have reconciled with this movement, but nationally churches have resisted it. Which left them further behind and resistant when subsequent rights movements broke out.

So while American society as a whole has created a broader, deeper talent pool for ideas and leadership by including women, people of color, immigrants, people of non-straight sexual preferences, the Christian church is largely missing out on those people.

And this is on a much smaller scale, but there’s a small subset of Christianity that has chosen to not reconcile with the modern world and treat government, education, science, and media as enemies of the church. Those subsets are getting louder as the share of Christians gets smaller.

Not attempting to make this political but my fear for the church is they are a microcosm of politics in that the fringes are most engaged, most vocal and get most of the coverage.

I think there's something to @IvanKaramazov 's comment about it being a reflection of society in general.

 

[massraider]

and get most of the coverage

This is simple, everyone knows this, but it's important to remember.

 

[dgreen]

But I’m not aware of any preacher who doesn’t teach that the horrible person who had a deathbed conversion goes to heaven while the most charitable person who doesn’t accept Christ goes to hell.

There are people who focus more on the here-and-now of heaven and hell. I agree it's not pervasive (to the point of your follow-up post), but it is out there and I do believe it is growing. Here's one example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykH8E9wTCcQ

 

[AAABatteries]

and get most of the coverage

This is simple, everyone knows this, but it's important to remember.

It’s why so many people think our country is “going to hell” when many markers show exactly the opposite (in some areas) over the last several years - low violent crime, average income. Things can become self-fulfilling at times.

 

[belljr]

No reason to be coy, especially if maximizing believers is one of his goals.

I'm reading the bible for the first time this year so I'm no expert, but this doesn't seem like it's one of His goals. Mathew's gospel talks about the narrow road and that few people can find it, while the road to Hell is wide and easy to find.

My Bible is rusty, been awhile since Catholic School but I don't recall taking that as the road is narrow because God doesn't want many believers but the road is narrow because it is a difficult one to walk. It's much easier to be selfish, greedy, cruel, self-centered, etc.

That’s my major problem with Christianity- I can be selfish, greedy, cruel, self-centered, etc. but still go to heaven - while the person who actually helps people and is a good earthly person goes to hell.

my grandmother always said that those "sanctimonious old bitties" at church on Sundays were the worst people in town ...always stirring up trouble and talking nasty and making up gossip

I was raised Presbyterian but didn't go that often ...parents made me go to classes 2 hours on Sunday evenings for 2 years to decide whether I wanted to join when I was 13-14 - horrible.

I joined and never went back.

Got married in a Catholic church and had to "counseling classes" before we got married in order to do so. The POS "counselor priest" told my wife not to marry me - that I was too selfish and not of the right faith.

Married 36 years ...**** that guy.

Also - raised the kids Catholic ...they both hate the religion and saw some of the most obnoxious racist crap you could image.

yeah, besides that, religion is great ...

yep - and the thing is - why should you care if I'm supposedly going to hell? Obviously different if I'm actively out and about hurting people but if I'm just living my life why should anyone else care where the end of my spiritual journey ends up

 

[AAABatteries]

No reason to be coy, especially if maximizing believers is one of his goals.

I'm reading the bible for the first time this year so I'm no expert, but this doesn't seem like it's one of His goals. Mathew's gospel talks about the narrow road and that few people can find it, while the road to Hell is wide and easy to find.

My Bible is rusty, been awhile since Catholic School but I don't recall taking that as the road is narrow because God doesn't want many believers but the road is narrow because it is a difficult one to walk. It's much easier to be selfish, greedy, cruel, self-centered, etc.

That’s my major problem with Christianity- I can be selfish, greedy, cruel, self-centered, etc. but still go to heaven - while the person who actually helps people and is a good earthly person goes to hell.

my grandmother always said that those "sanctimonious old bitties" at church on Sundays were the worst people in town ...always stirring up trouble and talking nasty and making up gossip

I was raised Presbyterian but didn't go that often ...parents made me go to classes 2 hours on Sunday evenings for 2 years to decide whether I wanted to join when I was 13-14 - horrible.

I joined and never went back.

Got married in a Catholic church and had to "counseling classes" before we got married in order to do so. The POS "counselor priest" told my wife not to marry me - that I was too selfish and not of the right faith.

Married 36 years ...**** that guy.

Also - raised the kids Catholic ...they both hate the religion and saw some of the most obnoxious racist crap you could image.

yeah, besides that, religion is great ...

yep - and the thing is - why should you care if I'm supposedly going to hell? Obviously different if I'm actively out and about hurting people but if I'm just living my life why should anyone else care where the end of my spiritual journey ends up

Well, I only know you as a dorky, somewhat funny fantasy football message board poster and I hope you don’t spend eternity in hell.

YWIA.

 

[Terminalxylem]

No reason to be coy, especially if maximizing believers is one of his goals.

I'm reading the bible for the first time this year so I'm no expert, but this doesn't seem like it's one of His goals. Mathew's gospel talks about the narrow road and that few people can find it, while the road to Hell is wide and easy to find.

My Bible is rusty, been awhile since Catholic School but I don't recall taking that as the road is narrow because God doesn't want many believers but the road is narrow because it is a difficult one to walk. It's much easier to be selfish, greedy, cruel, self-centered, etc.

That’s my major problem with Christianity- I can be selfish, greedy, cruel, self-centered, etc. but still go to heaven - while the person who actually helps people and is a good earthly person goes to hell.

my grandmother always said that those "sanctimonious old bitties" at church on Sundays were the worst people in town ...always stirring up trouble and talking nasty and making up gossip

I was raised Presbyterian but didn't go that often ...parents made me go to classes 2 hours on Sunday evenings for 2 years to decide whether I wanted to join when I was 13-14 - horrible.

I joined and never went back.

Got married in a Catholic church and had to "counseling classes" before we got married in order to do so. The POS "counselor priest" told my wife not to marry me - that I was too selfish and not of the right faith.

Married 36 years ...**** that guy.

Also - raised the kids Catholic ...they both hate the religion and saw some of the most obnoxious racist crap you could image.

yeah, besides that, religion is great ...

yep - and the thing is - why should you care if I'm supposedly going to hell? Obviously different if I'm actively out and about hurting people but if I'm just living my life why should anyone else care where the end of my spiritual journey ends up

Well, I only know you as a dorky, somewhat funny fantasy football message board poster and I hope you don’t spend eternity in hell.

YWIA.

No kidding. Why would anyone wish eternal suffering on another human, believing salvation is the alternative?

It’s kinda surprising more people of faith haven’t devoted their life to proselytizing.

 

[belljr]

No reason to be coy, especially if maximizing believers is one of his goals.

I'm reading the bible for the first time this year so I'm no expert, but this doesn't seem like it's one of His goals. Mathew's gospel talks about the narrow road and that few people can find it, while the road to Hell is wide and easy to find.

My Bible is rusty, been awhile since Catholic School but I don't recall taking that as the road is narrow because God doesn't want many believers but the road is narrow because it is a difficult one to walk. It's much easier to be selfish, greedy, cruel, self-centered, etc.

That’s my major problem with Christianity- I can be selfish, greedy, cruel, self-centered, etc. but still go to heaven - while the person who actually helps people and is a good earthly person goes to hell.

my grandmother always said that those "sanctimonious old bitties" at church on Sundays were the worst people in town ...always stirring up trouble and talking nasty and making up gossip

I was raised Presbyterian but didn't go that often ...parents made me go to classes 2 hours on Sunday evenings for 2 years to decide whether I wanted to join when I was 13-14 - horrible.

I joined and never went back.

Got married in a Catholic church and had to "counseling classes" before we got married in order to do so. The POS "counselor priest" told my wife not to marry me - that I was too selfish and not of the right faith.

Married 36 years ...**** that guy.

Also - raised the kids Catholic ...they both hate the religion and saw some of the most obnoxious racist crap you could image.

yeah, besides that, religion is great ...

yep - and the thing is - why should you care if I'm supposedly going to hell? Obviously different if I'm actively out and about hurting people but if I'm just living my life why should anyone else care where the end of my spiritual journey ends up

Well, I only know you as a dorky, somewhat funny fantasy football message board poster and I hope you don’t spend eternity in hell.

YWIA.

Dorky?

Your face is dorky

 

[Chaos34]

I read this thread start to finish yesterday. I thought Rock was out of his mind opening such an inflammatory topic here. It's a great thread and really good reading. I'm impressed and maybe a little shocked it can be done so civilly. Joe, you should be proud of what you've created here with your controversial rules. I voted the trend away from church is a bad thing. Then I'm a bit of a fatalist regarding where this world is headed and find most trends bad things. If only there was a trend for more thoughtful and civil conversation. That would be a truly good thing.

That’s my major problem with Christianity- I can be selfish, greedy, cruel, self-centered, etc. but still go to heaven - while the person who actually helps people and is a good earthly person goes to hell.

Yeah, that isn't a just god at all. I was hoping one of the bibleguys engaged here would share this, but wth. It's oversimplified and not how I was taught or understand the bible. Matthew 5-7 is where you'll find a lion's share of red letter words of Jesus. Within those passages he says, paraphrasing here: Not everyone who calls me Lord will go to heaven, only those who do the will of god get to go. He then says many will complain about this saying didn't we drive away demons and perform miracles in your name? Jesus said he will tell them simply, he did not know them.

So technically, yes, you can be selfish, greedy, cruel etc., and still go to heaven, but it requires a true conversion, not a hypocritical one. A true conversion requires repentance. So you have to stop the bad stuff for Jesus to know you. His words, not mine, and in conflict with teaching simple altar call and death bed salvations.

A few of you hate the church for its hypocrisies. Later in Matthew Jesus agrees with you. It's the only time in the bible he gets angry. "Woe unto you hypocrites!" I used to say that all the time. As the story goes, the temple was overcrowded with loan sharks and merchants using religion to fleece the commoners all overseen by the religious leadership of the time. There was no room for the blind and crippled Jesus meant to heal. So he turned over the tables and threw them out. In anger he addressed the Pharisees telling them they were like tombs, white and clean on the outside but full of dead men's bones on the inside. Outside they appeared pious and righteous but inside they were full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, hypocrites!

Back in the 90s when I went to church twice a week, my pastor used this bit to call out the Osteens and Copelands so many of you rightfully despise. They are the modern day pharisees. Woe unto them.

This bible study brought to you by someone who isn't too sure of anything beyond I am not an atheist.

 

[Ilov80s]

History books may not cover Joel Osteen's wealth, the history of sexual abuse, etc, the exorcism rituals with homosexuals, etc depending on when they were written. Sure there is a lot of good with religion. That's not being questioned. But is it offset with the bad enough to push people away? We have more people who are spiritual back away from religion. I think the 4 things I raised have a lot to do with it. If not - what's changed in the last 1/2 century to cause the shift? What are the reasons if not some of what I proposed? Evolution vs creation by God is not a new argument. Faith vs empirical evidence isn't either. Been around forever.

My working theory is that it's the same general social decay that wrecked every other institution. It's not as if it's just the church -- point at any random institution that was considered "trustworthy" in 1990 and compare it to today.

Is it that they are less trustworthy has more light been shined on these institutions and people are wiser now?

 

[AAABatteries]

I read this thread start to finish yesterday. I thought Rock was out of his mind opening such an inflammatory topic here. It's a great thread and really good reading. I'm impressed and maybe a little shocked it can be done so civilly. Joe, you should be proud of what you've created here with your controversial rules. I voted the trend away from church is a bad thing. Then I'm a bit of a fatalist regarding where this world is headed and find most trends bad things. If only there was a trend for more thoughtful and civil conversation. That would be a truly good thing.

That’s my major problem with Christianity- I can be selfish, greedy, cruel, self-centered, etc. but still go to heaven - while the person who actually helps people and is a good earthly person goes to hell.

Yeah, that isn't a just god at all. I was hoping one of the bibleguys engaged here would share this, but wth. It's oversimplified and not how I was taught or understand the bible. Matthew 5-7 is where you'll find a lion's share of red letter words of Jesus. Within those passages he says, paraphrasing here: Not everyone who calls me Lord will go to heaven, only those who do the will of god get to go. He then says many will complain about this saying didn't we drive away demons and perform miracles in your name? Jesus said he will tell them simply, he did not know them.

So technically, yes, you can be selfish, greedy, cruel etc., and still go to heaven, but it requires a true conversion, not a hypocritical one. A true conversion requires repentance. So you have to stop the bad stuff for Jesus to know you. His words, not mine, and in conflict with teaching simple altar call and death bed salvations.

A few you of you hate the church for it's hypocrisies. Later in Matthew Jesus agrees with you. It's the only time in the bible he gets angry. "Woe unto you hypocrites!" I used to say that all the time. As the story goes, the temple was overcrowded with loan sharks and merchants using religion to fleece the commoners all overseen by the religious leadership of the time. There was no room for the blind and crippled Jesus meant to heal. So he turned over the tables and threw them out. In anger he addressed the Pharisees telling them they were like tombs, white and clean on the outside but but full of dead men's bones on the inside. Outside they appeared pious and righteous but inside they were full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, hypocrites!

Back in the 90s when I went to church twice a week, my pastor used this bit to call out the Osteens and Copelands so many of you rightfully despise. They are the modern day pharisees. Woe unto them.

This bible study brought to you by someone who isn't too sure of anything beyond I am not an atheist.

Good post - the problem is even many Christians agree with:

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”​

When debating whether loss of religion is good or bad you have to factor in the actions of those doing things in the name of religion or who are in positions of power.

*sorry for formatting- couldn’t figure out how to change on mobile

 

[IvanKaramazov]

History books may not cover Joel Osteen's wealth, the history of sexual abuse, etc, the exorcism rituals with homosexuals, etc depending on when they were written. Sure there is a lot of good with religion. That's not being questioned. But is it offset with the bad enough to push people away? We have more people who are spiritual back away from religion. I think the 4 things I raised have a lot to do with it. If not - what's changed in the last 1/2 century to cause the shift? What are the reasons if not some of what I proposed? Evolution vs creation by God is not a new argument. Faith vs empirical evidence isn't either. Been around forever.

My working theory is that it's the same general social decay that wrecked every other institution. It's not as if it's just the church -- point at any random institution that was considered "trustworthy" in 1990 and compare it to today.

Is it that they are less trustworthy has more light been shined on these institutions and people are wiser now?

I don't claim to have a well-fleshed-out theory on this. It's probably a combination of things, and some of them are items where I might be reversing the causation. But speaking in very broad, general terms, the people who run our institutions just haven't demonstrated very good stewardship of the institutions that they're running. That's a slightly unfair criticism to make about "the church," which is not at all centralized and highly diverse. But the fact is that when this topic comes up, everybody wants to talk about (a) the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic church and (b) protestant megachurches. I have nothing to do with either of those, but Christians did both to themselves.

 

[AAABatteries]

We haven’t even really discussed religious cults - they damage people and families in extraordinary ways.

 

[Brunell4MVP]

Worship of a god of any type were established by cultures because people want to explain the unexplainable. Whether it's death, life after death, the meaning of life, stars, weather, food, the sun, the moon, whatever. It gives them happiness to believe someone is above the uncontrollable and unknown, and that there might be an existence after death. None of it is provable. Nor is it disprovable. We see things in the world we are capable of seeing. There is much more out there that we don't know than what we know.

It's a short life. Believe what you want and don't look back. I'd prefer it not be to a point where you wage war on other religions and cultures, but thousands of years of fighting over that and resources means peace isn't ever a reality that will be achiieved.

 

[Ilov80s]

History books may not cover Joel Osteen's wealth, the history of sexual abuse, etc, the exorcism rituals with homosexuals, etc depending on when they were written. Sure there is a lot of good with religion. That's not being questioned. But is it offset with the bad enough to push people away? We have more people who are spiritual back away from religion. I think the 4 things I raised have a lot to do with it. If not - what's changed in the last 1/2 century to cause the shift? What are the reasons if not some of what I proposed? Evolution vs creation by God is not a new argument. Faith vs empirical evidence isn't either. Been around forever.

My working theory is that it's the same general social decay that wrecked every other institution. It's not as if it's just the church -- point at any random institution that was considered "trustworthy" in 1990 and compare it to today.

Is it that they are less trustworthy has more light been shined on these institutions and people are wiser now?

I don't claim to have a well-fleshed-out theory on this. It's probably a combination of things, and some of them are items where I might be reversing the causation. But speaking in very broad, general terms, the people who run our institutions just haven't demonstrated very good stewardship of the institutions that they're running. That's a slightly unfair criticism to make about "the church," which is not at all centralized and highly diverse. But the fact is that when this topic comes up, everybody wants to talk about (a) the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic church and (b) protestant megachurches. I have nothing to do with either of those, but Christians did both to themselves.

The sex abuse is an interesting example. That is something that has been going on for centuries. It's likely that we now have less sexual abuse from "the Church" than ever because people are more cautious and there is more scrutiny paid to it. But there is in return less trust and respect for the Church but it's based more on past wrongdoings than current.

 

[ChiefD]

I don't know if God is real or not. I was raised a Catholic and went to old-school catholic school in the mid 70's. The nuns with the habits, cracking our knuckles with rulers....the whole bit.

And I'll never forget my 3rd grade nun saying: "God loves everyone."

I haven't gone to church in 35 years. But that's the mantra I live by.

"Love everyone."

Can't go wrong with that.

 

[Coach Beard]

To me - these are the real reasons there is a death/loss of religion.

If someone reads a history book or three, someone might think that organized religion does significantly more harm than good.

History books may not cover Joel Osteen's wealth, the history of sexual abuse, etc, the exorcism rituals with homosexuals, etc depending on when they were written. Sure there is a lot of good with religion. That's not being questioned. But is it offset with the bad enough to push people away? We have more people who are spiritual back away from religion. I think the 4 things I raised have a lot to do with it. If not - what's changed in the last 1/2 century to cause the shift? What are the reasons if not some of what I proposed? Evolution vs creation by God is not a new argument. Faith vs empirical evidence isn't either. Been around forever.

Re: the Christian church in the United States over the last 50 years… the Christian church as an institution hasn’t really reconciled with a society showing interest in treating women as equals. Individual churches on a local level have reconciled with this movement, but nationally churches have resisted it. Which left them further behind and resistant when subsequent rights movements broke out.

So while American society as a whole has created a broader, deeper talent pool for ideas and leadership by including women, people of color, immigrants, people of non-straight sexual preferences, the Christian church is largely missing out on those people.

And this is on a much smaller scale, but there’s a small subset of Christianity that has chosen to not reconcile with the modern world and treat government, education, science, and media as enemies of the church. Those subsets are getting louder as the share of Christians gets smaller.

Not attempting to make this political but my fear for the church is they are a microcosm of politics in that the fringes are most engaged, most vocal and get most of the coverage.

I think there's something to @IvanKaramazov 's comment about it being a reflection of society in general.

The church isn’t a victim in its decline. That decline is the consequences of its actions.

Generally speaking, people adopt a religion not because of the institution, but because of a one person of that religion or a few individuals they have relationships with who are of that religion. It’s a trade up/down scenario. Will my life be a trade up if I’m more like this other person I admire and respect? Or will it be a trade down?

So the gains are in the ones. But a negative event can cause losses in the thousands. And it’s rare for an adult to leave a religion and rejoin it later, so those losses are usually permanent.

 

[Brunell4MVP]

Civilization has existed for 5500+ years. Jewish people have believed God was coming to save them for about 4000 of those years. Christ was preaching Christianity for ~6 years. Mohammad was professing for ~30 of those years. Seems like God would have come along by now.

To me God or a higher being (that looks upon us like we look upon ants) is more believable than any prophets on earth for a miniscule fraction of existence.

 

[Captain Cranks]

To me God or a higher being (that looks upon us like we look upon ants) is more believable than any prophets on earth for a miniscule fraction of existence.

Especially when you consider that many of the stories told of these prophets are variations of myths told in other religions.

 

[rockaction]

I read this thread start to finish yesterday.

Awesome. Glad you took an interest in this, Chaos.

I thought Rock was out of his mind opening such an inflammatory topic here.

I don't even recall what prompted me to do it.

It's a great thread and really good reading. I'm impressed and maybe a little shocked it can be done so civilly. Joe, you should be proud of what you've created here with your controversial rules.

That's great to hear and is a credit to Joe, as you so astutely point out.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I read this thread start to finish yesterday. I thought Rock was out of his mind opening such an inflammatory topic here. It's a great thread and really good reading. I'm impressed and maybe a little shocked it can be done so civilly. Joe, you should be proud of what you've created here with your controversial rules. I voted the trend away from church is a bad thing. Then I'm a bit of a fatalist regarding where this world is headed and find most trends bad things. If only there was a trend for more thoughtful and civil conversation. That would be a truly good thing.

That’s my major problem with Christianity- I can be selfish, greedy, cruel, self-centered, etc. but still go to heaven - while the person who actually helps people and is a good earthly person goes to hell.

Yeah, that isn't a just god at all. I was hoping one of the bibleguys engaged here would share this, but wth. It's oversimplified and not how I was taught or understand the bible. Matthew 5-7 is where you'll find a lion's share of red letter words of Jesus. Within those passages he says, paraphrasing here: Not everyone who calls me Lord will go to heaven, only those who do the will of god get to go. He then says many will complain about this saying didn't we drive away demons and perform miracles in your name? Jesus said he will tell them simply, he did not know them.

So technically, yes, you can be selfish, greedy, cruel etc., and still go to heaven, but it requires a true conversion, not a hypocritical one. A true conversion requires repentance. So you have to stop the bad stuff for Jesus to know you. His words, not mine, and in conflict with teaching simple altar call and death bed salvations.

A few of you hate the church for its hypocrisies. Later in Matthew Jesus agrees with you. It's the only time in the bible he gets angry. "Woe unto you hypocrites!" I used to say that all the time. As the story goes, the temple was overcrowded with loan sharks and merchants using religion to fleece the commoners all overseen by the religious leadership of the time. There was no room for the blind and crippled Jesus meant to heal. So he turned over the tables and threw them out. In anger he addressed the Pharisees telling them they were like tombs, white and clean on the outside but full of dead men's bones on the inside. Outside they appeared pious and righteous but inside they were full of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, hypocrites!

Back in the 90s when I went to church twice a week, my pastor used this bit to call out the Osteens and Copelands so many of you rightfully despise. They are the modern day pharisees. Woe unto them.

This bible study brought to you by someone who isn't too sure of anything beyond I am not an atheist.

Thanks @Chaos34. It's a good bunch of folks here and I'm glad we can talk about this kind of stuff.

 

[SWC]

I don't know if God is real or not. I was raised a Catholic and went to old-school catholic school in the mid 70's. The nuns with the habits, cracking our knuckles with rulers....the whole bit.

And I'll never forget my 3rd grade nun saying: "God loves everyone."

I haven't gone to church in 35 years. But that's the mantra I live by.

"Love everyone."

Can't go wrong with that.

the only message that really counts in the bible in my opinion is love just love everyone and we will be ok its when people start using the bible to draw lines and say im better than you because blank that it all goes to hell literally and figuratively take that to the bank brohans

 

[AAABatteries]

I don't know if God is real or not. I was raised a Catholic and went to old-school catholic school in the mid 70's. The nuns with the habits, cracking our knuckles with rulers....the whole bit.

And I'll never forget my 3rd grade nun saying: "God loves everyone."

I haven't gone to church in 35 years. But that's the mantra I live by.

"Love everyone."

Can't go wrong with that.

the only message that really counts in the bible in my opinion is love just love everyone and we will be ok its when people start using the bible to draw lines and say im better than you because blank that it all goes to hell literally and figuratively take that to the bank brohans

"And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Many would do well to remember this.

 

[Psychopav]

No reason to be coy, especially if maximizing believers is one of his goals.

I'm reading the bible for the first time this year so I'm no expert, but this doesn't seem like it's one of His goals. Mathew's gospel talks about the narrow road and that few people can find it, while the road to Hell is wide and easy to find.

My Bible is rusty, been awhile since Catholic School but I don't recall taking that as the road is narrow because God doesn't want many believers but the road is narrow because it is a difficult one to walk. It's much easier to be selfish, greedy, cruel, self-centered, etc.

That’s my major problem with Christianity- I can be selfish, greedy, cruel, self-centered, etc. but still go to heaven - while the person who actually helps people and is a good earthly person goes to hell.

my grandmother always said that those "sanctimonious old bitties" at church on Sundays were the worst people in town ...always stirring up trouble and talking nasty and making up gossip

I was raised Presbyterian but didn't go that often ...parents made me go to classes 2 hours on Sunday evenings for 2 years to decide whether I wanted to join when I was 13-14 - horrible.

I joined and never went back.

Got married in a Catholic church and had to "counseling classes" before we got married in order to do so. The POS "counselor priest" told my wife not to marry me - that I was too selfish and not of the right faith.

Married 36 years ...**** that guy.

Also - raised the kids Catholic ...they both hate the religion and saw some of the most obnoxious racist crap you could image.

yeah, besides that, religion is great ...

yep - and the thing is - why should you care if I'm supposedly going to hell? Obviously different if I'm actively out and about hurting people but if I'm just living my life why should anyone else care where the end of my spiritual journey ends up

Well, I only know you as a dorky, somewhat funny fantasy football message board poster and I hope you don’t spend eternity in hell.

YWIA.

No kidding. Why would anyone wish eternal suffering on another human, believing salvation is the alternative?

It’s kinda surprising more people of faith haven’t devoted their life to proselytizing.

If it worked I'm sure they would.

At least, proselytizing vs. evangelizing. I think the idea is along the lines of what is often attributed to St. Francis: preach the gospel at all times. When necessary, use words.

 

[Psychopav]

Civilization has existed for 5500+ years. Jewish people have believed God was coming to save them for about 4000 of those years. Christ was preaching Christianity for ~6 years. Mohammad was professing for ~30 of those years. Seems like God would have come along by now.

To me God or a higher being (that looks upon us like we look upon ants) is more believable than any prophets on earth for a miniscule fraction of existence.

Do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years and a thousand years like one day. The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Terminalxylem]

It’s kinda surprising more people of faith haven’t devoted their life to proselytizing.

If it worked I'm sure they would.

At least, proselytizing vs. evangelizing. I think the idea is along the lines of what is often attributed to St. Francis: preach the gospel at all times. When necessary, use words.

I dunno.

If I thought there was a reasonable chance eternal life was on the table, I‘d be shouting it on every corner, like the guys warning of our reckoning in Times Square. At the minimum, I’d constantly be hounding non-believers I cared about.

Clearly it works for some people, lest religion would’ve died out years ago.

 

[rockaction]

I dunno.

If I thought there was a reasonable chance eternal life was on the table, I‘d be shouting it on every corner, like the guys warning of our reckoning in Times Square. At the minimum, I’d constantly be hounding non-believers I cared about.

Clearly it works for some people, lest religion would’ve died out years ago.

I'm an agnostic who struggles with faith, so I don't think I'm out of place saying that it's not a rational trade-off to believers. It's not a utile thing. It doesn't "work." For Christians, it's being in the Lord's grace and light and accepting him as your savior. Then they act in accordance with his wishes. Whatever utilitarian benefits accrue from that notion are secondary to the act qua act or the belief qua belief. It ends with the means, to paraphrase Kant.

To wit, about relevant and utile things:

"Honesty is the best policy" is a utile concept. It implies an earthly or material benefit from the act of honesty. It is driven by a calculus or benefit analysis.
Honesty because it's the right thing to do is a different concept. It implies a sense of justice and the good as both knowable and something we can attain and should strive to attain.

True Christians don't believe that their ticket to heaven is punched because of their belief; they accept the Lord and Jesus on entirely different grounds than policy or utile ones.

It's a hard thing for a rationalist to understand.

Having true faith as a rationalist is doubly hard, and I struggle mightily with it.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I dunno.

If I thought there was a reasonable chance eternal life was on the table, I‘d be shouting it on every corner, like the guys warning of our reckoning in Times Square. At the minimum, I’d constantly be hounding non-believers I cared about.

Clearly it works for some people, lest religion would’ve died out years ago.

When the weather is nice in the early fall, we always get one or two of "those guys" who pick a spot on campus and tell everybody who will listen about how important it is to accept Jesus as their Lord and personal savior. It doesn't seem to me that they save very many souls, but it does seem to me that they repel quite a few people who might have been open to a different message.

More generally, there is nobody living in the United States today who is unaware of the existence of Christianity and it's general message. The marginal benefit of cornering people to "evangelize" to them is very low, because you're not telling them anything they don't already know, and you are definitely pissing a lot of them off.

Better, IMO, is to just casually let people know that you're a churchgoer (no need to be showy about it -- this sort of thing naturally comes up in "How was your weekend?" type conversations) and hope that the example you set in your everyday life reflects well on your faith. Or at least that's my two cents. If somebody wants to write that off as lazy cope because I'm not dropping everything to preach the gospel to the last uncontacted tribe, fine whatever.

 

[Chaos34]

I dunno.

If I thought there was a reasonable chance eternal life was on the table, I‘d be shouting it on every corner

I'm pretty anti-social. I think you described yourself similarly. Best I could comfortably do was Puddy's approach.

 

[Terminalxylem]

You guys make compelling arguments, but it still must be tough.

Imagine a loved one were suffering from a chronic, life-threatening infection, and you knew Brussels sprouts would cure it. Unfortunately, they haaate Brussels.

Sure, you could eat them yourself at every meal, but how many variations would you offer your loved one, before letting them succumb to the disease?

 

[Joe Bryant]

I dunno.

If I thought there was a reasonable chance eternal life was on the table, I‘d be shouting it on every corner, like the guys warning of our reckoning in Times Square. At the minimum, I’d constantly be hounding non-believers I cared about.

That's a good question. Penn Jillette talks about that here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6md638smQd8&t=9s

Jillette is an atheist but talks about a Christian person giving him a bible. And how he respected the way he did it and also how he respected the guy trying to share what he believed.

 

[Ilov80s]

I dunno.

If I thought there was a reasonable chance eternal life was on the table, I‘d be shouting it on every corner, like the guys warning of our reckoning in Times Square. At the minimum, I’d constantly be hounding non-believers I cared about.

Clearly it works for some people, lest religion would’ve died out years ago.

When the weather is nice in the early fall, we always get one or two of "those guys" who pick a spot on campus and tell everybody who will listen about how important it is to accept Jesus as their Lord and personal savior. It doesn't seem to me that they save very many souls, but it does seem to me that they repel quite a few people who might have been open to a different message.

More generally, there is nobody living in the United States today who is unaware of the existence of Christianity and it's general message. The marginal benefit of cornering people to "evangelize" to them is very low, because you're not telling them anything they don't already know, and you are definitely pissing a lot of them off.

Better, IMO, is to just casually let people know that you're a churchgoer (no need to be showy about it -- this sort of thing naturally comes up in "How was your weekend?" type conversations) and hope that the example you set in your everyday life reflects well on your faith. Or at least that's my two cents. If somebody wants to write that off as lazy cope because I'm not dropping everything to preach the gospel to the last uncontacted tribe, fine whatever.

Agree. You want to win someone over to anything- it's not by preaching or threatening or demanding or explaining. It's by showing. Just like you don't let someone know you care about them by just telling them, you have to actually care for them. Love is a verb. You want to win someone over to your faith, you need to demonstrate how it's helpful for you and show those people love, respect, care. Be a small miracle for them.

 

[HomerSimpson]

You guys make compelling arguments, but it still must be tough.

Imagine a loved one were suffering from a chronic, life-threatening infection, and you knew Brussels sprouts would cure it. Unfortunately, they haaate Brussels.

Sure, you could eat them yourself at every meal, but how many variations would you offer your loved one, before letting them succumb to the disease?

Imagine you had A LOT of faith that Brussel Sprouts would cure them. But you didnt know.

 

[dgreen]

I dunno.

If I thought there was a reasonable chance eternal life was on the table, I‘d be shouting it on every corner, like the guys warning of our reckoning in Times Square. At the minimum, I’d constantly be hounding non-believers I cared about.

Clearly it works for some people, lest religion would’ve died out years ago.

When the weather is nice in the early fall, we always get one or two of "those guys" who pick a spot on campus and tell everybody who will listen about how important it is to accept Jesus as their Lord and personal savior. It doesn't seem to me that they save very many souls, but it does seem to me that they repel quite a few people who might have been open to a different message.

More generally, there is nobody living in the United States today who is unaware of the existence of Christianity and it's general message. The marginal benefit of cornering people to "evangelize" to them is very low, because you're not telling them anything they don't already know, and you are definitely pissing a lot of them off.

Better, IMO, is to just casually let people know that you're a churchgoer (no need to be showy about it -- this sort of thing naturally comes up in "How was your weekend?" type conversations) and hope that the example you set in your everyday life reflects well on your faith. Or at least that's my two cents. If somebody wants to write that off as lazy cope because I'm not dropping everything to preach the gospel to the last uncontacted tribe, fine whatever.

Agree. You want to win someone over to anything- it's not by preaching or threatening or demanding or explaining. It's by showing. Just like you don't let someone know you care about them by just telling them, you have to actually care for them. Love is a verb. You want to win someone over to your faith, you need to demonstrate how it's helpful for you and show those people love, respect, care. Be a small miracle for them.

As one of my ministers says, “What you win somebody with is what you win them to.”

 

[Terminalxylem]

I dunno.

If I thought there was a reasonable chance eternal life was on the table, I‘d be shouting it on every corner, like the guys warning of our reckoning in Times Square. At the minimum, I’d constantly be hounding non-believers I cared about.

That's a good question. Penn Jillette talks about that here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6md638smQd8&t=9s

Jillette is an atheist but talks about a Christian person giving him a bible. And how he respected the way he did it and also how he respected the guy trying to share what he believed.

Yep. I agree with Penn 100%.

I’ve discussed this exact topic with my religious friends. I never get irritated being proselytized, if it’s approached respectfully, and remain surprised it doesn’t happen much, much more often.

Arguments that everyone already knows what religion has to offer, or would be repelled by a caring gesture to share one’s faith are bad excuses imo. I mean, the downside is a little bit of wasted time, and maybe irritating a friend or stranger. But the potential to influence someone to avoid an eternity of suffering isn’t worth that effort???

 

[Terminalxylem]

I dunno.

If I thought there was a reasonable chance eternal life was on the table, I‘d be shouting it on every corner, like the guys warning of our reckoning in Times Square. At the minimum, I’d constantly be hounding non-believers I cared about.

Clearly it works for some people, lest religion would’ve died out years ago.

When the weather is nice in the early fall, we always get one or two of "those guys" who pick a spot on campus and tell everybody who will listen about how important it is to accept Jesus as their Lord and personal savior. It doesn't seem to me that they save very many souls, but it does seem to me that they repel quite a few people who might have been open to a different message.

More generally, there is nobody living in the United States today who is unaware of the existence of Christianity and it's general message. The marginal benefit of cornering people to "evangelize" to them is very low, because you're not telling them anything they don't already know, and you are definitely pissing a lot of them off.

Better, IMO, is to just casually let people know that you're a churchgoer (no need to be showy about it -- this sort of thing naturally comes up in "How was your weekend?" type conversations) and hope that the example you set in your everyday life reflects well on your faith. Or at least that's my two cents. If somebody wants to write that off as lazy cope because I'm not dropping everything to preach the gospel to the last uncontacted tribe, fine whatever.

Agree. You want to win someone over to anything- it's not by preaching or threatening or demanding or explaining. It's by showing. Just like you don't let someone know you care about them by just telling them, you have to actually care for them. Love is a verb. You want to win someone over to your faith, you need to demonstrate how it's helpful for you and show those people love, respect, care. Be a small miracle for them.

There’s no reason you can’t live your life as an example and respectfully share your thoughts on the path to salvation,

 

[Ilov80s]

I dunno.

If I thought there was a reasonable chance eternal life was on the table, I‘d be shouting it on every corner, like the guys warning of our reckoning in Times Square. At the minimum, I’d constantly be hounding non-believers I cared about.

Clearly it works for some people, lest religion would’ve died out years ago.

When the weather is nice in the early fall, we always get one or two of "those guys" who pick a spot on campus and tell everybody who will listen about how important it is to accept Jesus as their Lord and personal savior. It doesn't seem to me that they save very many souls, but it does seem to me that they repel quite a few people who might have been open to a different message.

More generally, there is nobody living in the United States today who is unaware of the existence of Christianity and it's general message. The marginal benefit of cornering people to "evangelize" to them is very low, because you're not telling them anything they don't already know, and you are definitely pissing a lot of them off.

Better, IMO, is to just casually let people know that you're a churchgoer (no need to be showy about it -- this sort of thing naturally comes up in "How was your weekend?" type conversations) and hope that the example you set in your everyday life reflects well on your faith. Or at least that's my two cents. If somebody wants to write that off as lazy cope because I'm not dropping everything to preach the gospel to the last uncontacted tribe, fine whatever.

Agree. You want to win someone over to anything- it's not by preaching or threatening or demanding or explaining. It's by showing. Just like you don't let someone know you care about them by just telling them, you have to actually care for them. Love is a verb. You want to win someone over to your faith, you need to demonstrate how it's helpful for you and show those people love, respect, care. Be a small miracle for them.

There’s no reason you can’t live your life as an example and respectfully share your thoughts on the path to salvation,

Yes, sharing your thoughts is good....once you have the ear and the respect of the listener. Otherwise, you are likely having the opposite effect. Also, I am not religious, so I am not really approaching this from a matter of faith. I am a teacher though and I suppose in some ways it's not so different from preaching. I don't get the kids to become better people and take on our values by telling them. I do it by earning their respect and exemplifying them, praising others who show them, rewarding those who take steps towards the path.

 

[TripItUp]

The discussion of whether god exists or if Christianity(or any religion) is the one true religion is rather boring to me and frankly low IQ.

What's more interesting to me is have we lost our moral compass as a nation and even globally and what are the reasons for that decay? What does humanity need to do to restore that or improve it?

 

[Terminalxylem]

You guys make compelling arguments, but it still must be tough.

Imagine a loved one were suffering from a chronic, life-threatening infection, and you knew Brussels sprouts would cure it. Unfortunately, they haaate Brussels.

Sure, you could eat them yourself at every meal, but how many variations would you offer your loved one, before letting them succumb to the disease?

Imagine you had A LOT of faith that Brussel Sprouts would cure them. But you didnt know.

If I had a lot of faith, I’d feel compelled to share it with those I cared about, at the minimum.

I dunno.

If I thought there was a reasonable chance eternal life was on the table, I‘d be shouting it on every corner, like the guys warning of our reckoning in Times Square. At the minimum, I’d constantly be hounding non-believers I cared about.

Clearly it works for some people, lest religion would’ve died out years ago.

When the weather is nice in the early fall, we always get one or two of "those guys" who pick a spot on campus and tell everybody who will listen about how important it is to accept Jesus as their Lord and personal savior. It doesn't seem to me that they save very many souls, but it does seem to me that they repel quite a few people who might have been open to a different message.

More generally, there is nobody living in the United States today who is unaware of the existence of Christianity and it's general message. The marginal benefit of cornering people to "evangelize" to them is very low, because you're not telling them anything they don't already know, and you are definitely pissing a lot of them off.

Better, IMO, is to just casually let people know that you're a churchgoer (no need to be showy about it -- this sort of thing naturally comes up in "How was your weekend?" type conversations) and hope that the example you set in your everyday life reflects well on your faith. Or at least that's my two cents. If somebody wants to write that off as lazy cope because I'm not dropping everything to preach the gospel to the last uncontacted tribe, fine whatever.

Agree. You want to win someone over to anything- it's not by preaching or threatening or demanding or explaining. It's by showing. Just like you don't let someone know you care about them by just telling them, you have to actually care for them. Love is a verb. You want to win someone over to your faith, you need to demonstrate how it's helpful for you and show those people love, respect, care. Be a small miracle for them.

There’s no reason you can’t live your life as an example and respectfully share your thoughts on the path to salvation,

Yes, sharing your thoughts is good....once you have the ear and the respect of the listener. Otherwise, you are likely having the opposite effect. Also, I am not religious, so I am not really approaching this from a matter of faith. I am a teacher though and I suppose in some ways it's not so different from preaching. I don't get the kids to become better people and take on our values by telling them. I do it by earning their respect and exemplifying them, praising others who show them, rewarding those who take steps towards the path.

This makes a lot of sense, but I don’t see many religious people acting this way. I’ve seen/heard far more condemnation for doing things wrong, than praise for following a righteous path. But most often, people just keep their religious beliefs to themselves.

In general, it’s nice to respect the privacy of others, and not impose your values. But eternal life is too big a prize not to be assertive in sharing. There really shouldn’t be ambiguity in the message, especially with people whose respect you’ve earned/those you care about.

 

[Ilov80s]

You guys make compelling arguments, but it still must be tough.

Imagine a loved one were suffering from a chronic, life-threatening infection, and you knew Brussels sprouts would cure it. Unfortunately, they haaate Brussels.

Sure, you could eat them yourself at every meal, but how many variations would you offer your loved one, before letting them succumb to the disease?

Imagine you had A LOT of faith that Brussel Sprouts would cure them. But you didnt know.

If I had a lot of faith, I’d feel compelled to share it with those I cared about, at the minimum.

I dunno.

If I thought there was a reasonable chance eternal life was on the table, I‘d be shouting it on every corner, like the guys warning of our reckoning in Times Square. At the minimum, I’d constantly be hounding non-believers I cared about.

Clearly it works for some people, lest religion would’ve died out years ago.

When the weather is nice in the early fall, we always get one or two of "those guys" who pick a spot on campus and tell everybody who will listen about how important it is to accept Jesus as their Lord and personal savior. It doesn't seem to me that they save very many souls, but it does seem to me that they repel quite a few people who might have been open to a different message.

More generally, there is nobody living in the United States today who is unaware of the existence of Christianity and it's general message. The marginal benefit of cornering people to "evangelize" to them is very low, because you're not telling them anything they don't already know, and you are definitely pissing a lot of them off.

Better, IMO, is to just casually let people know that you're a churchgoer (no need to be showy about it -- this sort of thing naturally comes up in "How was your weekend?" type conversations) and hope that the example you set in your everyday life reflects well on your faith. Or at least that's my two cents. If somebody wants to write that off as lazy cope because I'm not dropping everything to preach the gospel to the last uncontacted tribe, fine whatever.

Agree. You want to win someone over to anything- it's not by preaching or threatening or demanding or explaining. It's by showing. Just like you don't let someone know you care about them by just telling them, you have to actually care for them. Love is a verb. You want to win someone over to your faith, you need to demonstrate how it's helpful for you and show those people love, respect, care. Be a small miracle for them.

There’s no reason you can’t live your life as an example and respectfully share your thoughts on the path to salvation,

Yes, sharing your thoughts is good....once you have the ear and the respect of the listener. Otherwise, you are likely having the opposite effect. Also, I am not religious, so I am not really approaching this from a matter of faith. I am a teacher though and I suppose in some ways it's not so different from preaching. I don't get the kids to become better people and take on our values by telling them. I do it by earning their respect and exemplifying them, praising others who show them, rewarding those who take steps towards the path.

This makes a lot of sense, but I don’t see many religious people acting this way. I’ve seen/heard far more condemnation for doing things wrong, than praise for following a righteous path. But most often, people just keep their religious beliefs to themselves.

In general, it’s nice to respect the privacy of others, and not impose your values. But eternal life is too big a prize not to be assertive in sharing. There really shouldn’t be ambiguity in the message, especially with people whose respect you’ve earned/those you care about.

Unfortunately, it does sometimes feel like it's the worst people who do all the talking and the best of the bunch keep to themselves. Perhaps that's part of the problem of humility. I don't know but I do know how to influence people and it's not with threats, that is for sure. Also you do have to recognize that sometimes you just aren't the person that is going to deliver that message to that person or at least not at this time. But for religion, I don't know. I grew up in Catholic school 12 years, I am well schooled in the Church. Much of it left a significant impression on me but much of it did not. It has very much shaped who I am but I am not a believer and don't ever see myself ending up that way. I love the values and mysticism but it all falls apart for me in the hands of man.

 

[Joe Bryant]

On that note of the guy sharing with Penn Jillette, I want to be that guy. I certainly don't do it well all the time, but I've tried to be a person here on the forums who represents my faith well. I've messed it up plenty of times though.

I've offered and sent the Case For Christ book to quite a few folks. If you'd like a copy, please shoot me a PM and I'll get you one.

I'm a firm believer in you'll never argue someone into faith. But one can present some things and wrestle with the objections and that's what this book does. It's not exhaustive or especially scholarly, but I think it's good.

 

[rockaction]

Perhaps that's part of the problem of humility

I think that's the biggest part of it. Humility before God as a sinner and maybe feeling unworthy of his grace. The loudest and the least self-reflective among us generally have the most to be self-reflective and humble about.

It's a sad irony, really.

 

[rockaction]

Pride is the first of the seven deadly sins. I once had a very religious person who thought that the weirdly done Devil's Advocate was a good movie because so few movies concentrated on the problems of pride and vanity. Anyway, that struck me and I thought about pride and what pride meant. Changed the way I look at things. Just a simple discussion, too, and about movies no less.

 

[AAABatteries]

True Christians don't believe that their ticket to heaven is punched because of their belief

I think I know what you are attempting to say but you may want to explain it because this is exactly what most Christians (that I know) believe.

 

[AAABatteries]

On that note of the guy sharing with Penn Jillette, I want to be that guy. I certainly don't do it well all the time, but I've tried to be a person here on the forums who represents my faith well. I've messed it up plenty of times though.

I've offered and sent the Case For Christ book to quite a few folks. If you'd like a copy, please shoot me a PM and I'll get you one.

I'm a firm believer in you'll never argue someone into faith. But one can present some things and wrestle with the objections and that's what this book does. It's not exhaustive or especially scholarly, but I think it's good.

I think where Term is going is this.

Joe, say one of your kids starts down a path that would lead to destruction and you “know” it will. Are you saying you wouldn’t do anything in your power to convince your kid you are correct and they are wrong?

If I “knew” my kid was going to spend eternity in hell I think I’d do a little arguing with them but maybe that’s just me.

 

[AAABatteries]

Meaning - I wouldn’t just sit back and give them my thoughts and hope they trust me and see things my way. If their eternal soul was on the line I would think I’d literally do anything possible to convince them.

 

[Psychopav]

Meaning - I wouldn’t just sit back and give them my thoughts and hope they trust me and see things my way. If their eternal soul was on the line I would think I’d literally do anything possible to convince them.

What if you also believed that nothing you could do could convince them of the truth? That you could only give them the knowledge of the faith and your witness, but that there was another Person who was infinitely more qualified to convince them of the truth, who understood the far better than you ever could, and who cared about their salvation far more than you ever could?

What if your conscience told you that there was an appropriate degree of candor and a point of going too far? Wouldn’t you follow that conscience?