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Don’t blame Manchin (1 Viewer)

timschochet

timschochet

Footballguy
All these leftists  showing up on MSNBC blaming Joe Manchin for killing the climate change deal, killing Biden’s agenda, not agreeing to end the filibuster, etc. They really dislike the guy, can’t stand that he’s a moderate. And they’re endlessly whining about him. Makes me sick. 

The only reason that Joe Manchin is even a thing is because Republicans oppose every one of these measures. Which in some cases is ideological, and in some cases just because they want to #### over the Democrats. But you know what? That’s their right. Hey Democrats you want to beat this? Win more elections. Take these issues to the voters; they agree with you on a lot of it. And stop whining. 

 
Manchin is basically a gun for hire. That said, I like who’s paying him off right now. Joe should be thanking him. He saved him from himself. 

 
I generally like Manchin.

However, on the stripped-down BBB/climate bill, he is missing an incredibly historic oppty to singularly make a difference. Ostensibly, his reasoning for opposing the bill is inflation and the national debt.

These reasons are incredibly misguided a) because the climate investments are genuinely investments and not outright stimulus-like fiscal handouts b) at this stage $500 billion in additional debt is a drop in the bucket vs. the monumental benefits that would accrue and c) runaway inflation will likely be handled by an impending recession.

The Democrats missed their climate oppty in 2010 under Obama. It has been 12 years waiting for this next one. If ever the next one occurs will likely be too late to prevent warming from exceeding the 1.5-2.0C degree devastating temperature levels.

So yeah. He deserves the heat in this specific case.

 
Stoneworker said:
I generally like Manchin.

However, on the stripped-down BBB/climate bill, he is missing an incredibly historic oppty to singularly make a difference. Ostensibly, his reasoning for opposing the bill is inflation and the national debt.

These reasons are incredibly misguided a) because the climate investments are genuinely investments and not outright stimulus-like fiscal handouts b) at this stage $500 billion in additional debt is a drop in the bucket vs. the monumental benefits that would accrue and c) runaway inflation will likely be handled by an impending recession.

The Democrats missed their climate oppty in 2010 under Obama. It has been 12 years waiting for this next one. If ever the next one occurs will likely be too late to prevent warming from exceeding the 1.5-2.0C degree devastating temperature levels.

So yeah. He deserves the heat in this specific case.
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Your points are well taken. Yes he is wrong. But if he is wrong, what of the 100% of Republicans who also are voting no? 

 
I'd give him more credit if I thought his motivations were pure.  

In general, yes - we need more people in politics that are not afraid to go against the party lines on various issues if that's what they believe.  

 
Boston said:
I am surprised the dems dislike him...like Liz Cheney or Mitt Romney you would think they would be very impressed by his will to stand-up to his party and be non-partisan. 
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You seem to be conflating integrity with being a self-interested weasel.

 
timschochet said:
Your points are well taken. Yes he is wrong. But if he is wrong, what of the 100% of Republicans who also are voting no? 
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They are wrong too. But that's not nearly as important because Manchin is the marginal difference maker.

If the vote was 50-50, and Kamala Harris voted No, who would you blame more...Harris or the 50 GOP?

 
Stoneworker said:
I generally like Manchin.

However, on the stripped-down BBB/climate bill, he is missing an incredibly historic oppty to singularly make a difference. Ostensibly, his reasoning for opposing the bill is inflation and the national debt.

These reasons are incredibly misguided a) because the climate investments are genuinely investments and not outright stimulus-like fiscal handouts b) at this stage $500 billion in additional debt is a drop in the bucket vs. the monumental benefits that would accrue and c) runaway inflation will likely be handled by an impending recession.

The Democrats missed their climate oppty in 2010 under Obama. It has been 12 years waiting for this next one. If ever the next one occurs will likely be too late to prevent warming from exceeding the 1.5-2.0C degree devastating temperature levels.

So yeah. He deserves the heat in this specific case.
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:goodposting:

 
timschochet said:
Your points are well taken. Yes he is wrong. But if he is wrong, what of the 100% of Republicans who also are voting no? 
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Also, climate change is part of the Democrats' platform. It is not part of the GOP platform.

Manchin is a Democrat so there should be greater expectation to vote consistently in that regard.

GOP senators have no such expectation on this issue.

 
Stoneworker said:
They are wrong too. But that's not nearly as important because Manchin is the marginal difference maker.

If the vote was 50-50, and Kamala Harris voted No, who would you blame more...Harris or the 50 GOP?
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The 50 GOP. 
I don’t like it when one side votes as a bloc to stop the other side. These guys are all individuals, they’re supposed to have 50 separate brains, they should act like it. 

 
Stoneworker said:
Also, climate change is part of the Democrats' platform. It is not part of the GOP platform.

Manchin is a Democrat so there should be greater expectation to vote consistently in that regard.

GOP senators have no such expectation on this issue.
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And you just hit on the main problem here. Climate change isn’t part of the Democratic platform, it’s part of the world’s platform. I expect our politicians to do something about this crisis and that includes the GOP. 

 
timschochet said:
And you just hit on the main problem here. Climate change isn’t part of the Democratic platform, it’s part of the world’s platform. I expect our politicians to do something about this crisis and that includes the GOP. 
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I voted Biden and Democrats because I expected that...when a party has control of both houses of Congress and the presidency...and there is an historic oppty to make a difference on a massive issue...that that party would seize the opportunity.

Next time I will use my one separate brain...instead of voting as part of the bloc I actually thought could get something done.

 
fruity pebbles said:
Was it a lock Sinema was going to vote for it anyways? 
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If she was the last person standing IMO she would have fallen in line fairly easily. Her main beef with BBB was the huge initial price tag and climate-only is significantly scaled down. And not a matter of principle like filibuster.

 
Manchin is an opportunist taking advantage of a perfect situation for him. He’s the only Democrat who has a chance in WV, so there’s no primary risk. Democrats can’t go too forcefully against him or he will just change parties. If he gets a chance, he’ll do the same thing to the Republicans. It’s one thing if he’s pushing bipartisanship or trying cut pork out of bills but I think he just loves the attention. He loves that everything has to go through him.

If the Democrats really want to get voters to turn out they need to give them a plan, explain how they’re going to do it and actually do it. Tell voters that we need to keep the House and need at least 2 more Senators so that Manchin doesn’t matter. Then we will nuke the filibuster and put in all the agenda pieces they want. Then do it. Quit worrying about the backlash and how the Republicans will respond. Quit telling people just to vote and deliver nothing.
 

Give them results and they will become loyal voters again. Republicans promised their voters that would fight to get their conservative values back and stop the progressive agenda. And they have delivered, that’s why their voters are so loyal and put up with all the clowns. 

 
timschochet said:
The 50 GOP. 
I don’t like it when one side votes as a bloc to stop the other side. These guys are all individuals, they’re supposed to have 50 separate brains, they should act like it. 
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Well shouldn't  you be asking why the democrats don't have more defectors?

 
Biff84 said:
Manchin is an opportunist taking advantage of a perfect situation for him. He’s the only Democrat who has a chance in WV, so there’s no primary risk. Democrats can’t go too forcefully against him or he will just change parties. If he gets a chance, he’ll do the same thing to the Republicans. It’s one thing if he’s pushing bipartisanship or trying cut pork out of bills but I think he just loves the attention. He loves that everything has to go through him.

If the Democrats really want to get voters to turn out they need to give them a plan, explain how they’re going to do it and actually do it. Tell voters that we need to keep the House and need at least 2 more Senators so that Manchin doesn’t matter. Then we will nuke the filibuster and put in all the agenda pieces they want. Then do it. Quit worrying about the backlash and how the Republicans will respond. Quit telling people just to vote and deliver nothing.
 

Give them results and they will become loyal voters again. Republicans promised their voters that would fight to get their conservative values back and stop the progressive agenda. And they have delivered, that’s why their voters are so loyal and put up with all the clowns. 
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Great post. 

 
Biff84 said:
Manchin is an opportunist taking advantage of a perfect situation for him. He’s the only Democrat who has a chance in WV, so there’s no primary risk. Democrats can’t go too forcefully against him or he will just change parties. If he gets a chance, he’ll do the same thing to the Republicans. It’s one thing if he’s pushing bipartisanship or trying cut pork out of bills but I think he just loves the attention. He loves that everything has to go through him.

If the Democrats really want to get voters to turn out they need to give them a plan, explain how they’re going to do it and actually do it. Tell voters that we need to keep the House and need at least 2 more Senators so that Manchin doesn’t matter. Then we will nuke the filibuster and put in all the agenda pieces they want. Then do it. Quit worrying about the backlash and how the Republicans will respond. Quit telling people just to vote and deliver nothing.
 

Give them results and they will become loyal voters again. Republicans promised their voters that would fight to get their conservative values back and stop the progressive agenda. And they have delivered, that’s why their voters are so loyal and put up with all the clowns. 
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But the results they want aren't a progressive  agenda.   The dems demographic voter now is closer to Timschochet than Walter Ruether.

 
What exactly are Manchin’s Democratic bona fides, anyway? All his positions that I’m familiar with are conservative positions, so I wonder why he keeps up the ruse.

Lemme guess - he backs unions, right?

 
Stoneworker said:
Also, climate change is part of the Democrats' platform. It is not part of the GOP platform.

Manchin is a Democrat so there should be greater expectation to vote consistently in that regard.

GOP senators have no such expectation on this issue.
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I encourage everyone to stop being slaves to the two party system and start thinking for themselves... then demand the same of your politicians. 

 
quick-hands said:
But the results they want aren't a progressive  agenda.   The dems demographic voter now is closer to Timschochet than Walter Ruether.
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Doesn’t have to be that progressive of an agenda. Start with codifying Roe, gun control measures and voters rights. Those are 60-70%+ issues. I’d go further with Supreme Court reform and reasonable climate change action but you really wouldn’t have to.

 
In summary:

PSF on politicians:  We need more politicians that won’t just toe the party line and vote what they think is right.

Blue tribe on guy that doesn’t toe their party line:  He’s an opportunist.  He’s a self-interested weasel.  His motivations are not pure.  He just loves the attention.

🤔🙄

 
Maybe the D‘S should realize that WV has far different needs than other states that are D.  He’s still in line with the party on social issues.

 
djmich said:
In summary:

PSF on politicians:  We need more politicians that won’t just toe the party line and vote what they think is right.

Blue tribe on guy that doesn’t toe their party line:  He’s an opportunist.  He’s a self-interested weasel.  His motivations are not pure.  He just loves the attention.

🤔🙄
Click to expand...


I'd make this change:

We need more politicians that won’t just toe the party line and vote what they think is right.

Blue tribe or Red tribe on person that doesn’t toe their party line:  He’s an opportunist.  He’s a self-interested weasel.  His motivations are not pure.  He just loves the attention.

If someone from the "other" side doesn't toe the party line, that person has integrity. 

Rinse and repeat.

One would hope the Republicans would learn things from Cheney and the Democrats would learn from Manchin. Doesn't seem to be the case. But that's entirely predictable as well. It's way easier to dismiss or demonize the person that doesn't agree with me than it is to consider they might have a point. Because that might mean we could be wrong about something. Or our side might lose some points. 

 
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Joe Bryant said:
I'd make this change:

We need more politicians that won’t just toe the party line and vote what they think is right.

Blue tribe or Red tribe on person that doesn’t toe their party line:  He’s an opportunist.  He’s a self-interested weasel.  His motivations are not pure.  He just loves the attention.

If someone from the "other" side doesn't toe the party line, that person has integrity. 

Rinse and repeat.

One would hope the Republicans would learn things from Cheney and the Democrats would learn from Cheney. Doesn't seem to be the case. But that's entirely predictable as well. It's way easier to dismiss or demonize the person that doesn't agree with me than it is to consider they might have a point. Because that might mean we could be wrong about something. Or our side might lose some points. 
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Agree 100%.  I certainly didn’t question Cheneys motives.

Also I’m not sure voting in a way that gets you re-elected (what the people want) should out of hand be considered opportunistic.

 
djmich said:
In summary:

PSF on politicians:  We need more politicians that won’t just toe the party line and vote what they think is right.

Blue tribe on guy that doesn’t toe their party line:  He’s an opportunist.  He’s a self-interested weasel.  His motivations are not pure.  He just loves the attention.

🤔🙄
Click to expand...
Exactly.  Where were these guys when the last 3 Republican nominated Supreme Court Justices received zero Democrat Party votes?  

 
Biff84 said:
Doesn’t have to be that progressive of an agenda. Start with codifying Roe, gun control measures and voters rights. Those are 60-70%+ issues. I’d go further with Supreme Court reform and reasonable climate change action but you really wouldn’t have to.
Click to expand...
I don't think any of those things win for democrats.    

But the last two ruin the party.

 
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fatguyinalittlecoat said:
I mostly agree with Tim on this one.  The fact that we have a Democratic Senator from West Virginia is a miracle we shouldn’t expect too much from him.     
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Agreed. And Manchin has been there for Democrats for the infrastructure bill, votes to convict Trump, on gun control, supported Jackson for the SC,  tried to get his voting rights bill through to name a few. He'll be there on the same sex marriage bill. West  Virginia voted for Trump in a big way. It's amazing they don't have a Rand Paul or Ted Cruz like Senator. Democrats should stop their whining. 

 
djmich said:
In summary:

PSF on politicians:  We need more politicians that won’t just toe the party line and vote what they think is right.

Blue tribe on guy that doesn’t toe their party line:  He’s an opportunist.  He’s a self-interested weasel.  His motivations are not pure.  He just loves the attention.

🤔🙄
Click to expand...
Yup.   Well said.  

And it seems like they don't even know they do this.  The name calling is pretty par for the course at this point as well

 
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Joe Bryant said:
One would hope the Republicans would learn things from Cheney and the Democrats would learn from Manchin. Doesn't seem to be the case. But that's entirely predictable as well. It's way easier to dismiss or demonize the person that doesn't agree with me than it is to consider they might have a point. Because that might mean we could be wrong about something. Or our side might lose some points. 
Click to expand...
This seems like one of those instances where it's instructive to look deeper rather than reflexively do the "both sides" thing.  Are there times when Democrats go against the party out of policy or integrity motives?  Sure.  Is this one of them...

Specifically, Liz Cheney is pretty clearly acting against her own personal best interests (as opposed to acting against her party).  It's fair to call that integrity.  Manchin, when voting against climate change legislation, is pretty clearly acting against his party's interests.  We could say that's non-partisan, or we could look deeper into the fact that Manchin personally makes money from coal and is heavily backed by fossil fuel interests.  It's certainly fair to say that Manchin, when he votes against greener energy measures, is acting in his own personal best interests and determine that is not actually acting with integrity.

 
Rich Conway said:
This seems like one of those instances where it's instructive to look deeper rather than reflexively do the "both sides" thing.  Are there times when Democrats go against the party out of policy or integrity motives?  Sure.  Is this one of them...

Specifically, Liz Cheney is pretty clearly acting against her own personal best interests (as opposed to acting against her party).  It's fair to call that integrity.  Manchin, when voting against climate change legislation, is pretty clearly acting against his party's interests.  We could say that's non-partisan, or we could look deeper into the fact that Manchin personally makes money from coal and is heavily backed by fossil fuel interests.  It's certainly fair to say that Manchin, when he votes against greener energy measures, is acting in his own personal best interests and determine that is not actually acting with integrity.
Click to expand...
On one hand, I want to believe that Democrats are the party that wants to save democracy.  

Then I read posts like this and I realize that you're just salty about the people of West Virginia having their interests represented in the senate.

 
Joe Bryant said:
I'd make this change:

We need more politicians that won’t just toe the party line and vote what they think is right.

Blue tribe or Red tribe on person that doesn’t toe their party line:  He’s an opportunist.  He’s a self-interested weasel.  His motivations are not pure.  He just loves the attention.

If someone from the "other" side doesn't toe the party line, that person has integrity. 

Rinse and repeat.

One would hope the Republicans would learn things from Cheney and the Democrats would learn from Manchin. Doesn't seem to be the case. But that's entirely predictable as well. It's way easier to dismiss or demonize the person that doesn't agree with me than it is to consider they might have a point. Because that might mean we could be wrong about something. Or our side might lose some points. 
Click to expand...


I feel like I can hazard a pretty good guess as to what you think Republicans can learn from Cheney. What is it you think Dems can learn from Manchin?

I agree with you that it's always best to consider that the person who disagrees with you might have a point, but I genuinely do not understand what point I'm supposed to be taking from Manchin.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
On one hand, I want to believe that Democrats are the party that wants to save democracy.  

Then I read posts like this and I realize that you're just salty about the people of West Virginia having their interests represented in the senate.
Click to expand...
If by "people" you mean "companies" sure....if we're being honest, his positions aren't helping the average person there.  I've spent a ton of my life in the poorest sections of Kentucky, Tenn, WV and the Carolinas.  They aren't being helped by any of this nonsense.  That said, this isn't unique to him.  It just makes him just like most of the rest of those in Washington. 

 
Rich Conway said:
This seems like one of those instances where it's instructive to look deeper rather than reflexively do the "both sides" thing.  Are there times when Democrats go against the party out of policy or integrity motives?  Sure.  Is this one of them...

Specifically, Liz Cheney is pretty clearly acting against her own personal best interests (as opposed to acting against her party).  It's fair to call that integrity.  Manchin, when voting against climate change legislation, is pretty clearly acting against his party's interests.  We could say that's non-partisan, or we could look deeper into the fact that Manchin personally makes money from coal and is heavily backed by fossil fuel interests.  It's certainly fair to say that Manchin, when he votes against greener energy measures, is acting in his own personal best interests and determine that is not actually acting with integrity.
Click to expand...


Sorry, but wasn't "reflexively" doing anything. 

 
IvanKaramazov said:
On one hand, I want to believe that Democrats are the party that wants to save democracy.  

Then I read posts like this and I realize that you're just salty about the people of West Virginia having their interests represented in the senate.
Click to expand...
Simple yes or no.  Do you think it's fair to consider whether Joe Manchin, personally, is heavily invested in the coal industry when evaluating his stance on legislation that would impact that investment?

 
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