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Do walls work? (1 Viewer)

Henry Ford said:
Extreme? It’s a lock.  It’s a good lock, but it’s a lock. 

I don’t see your point.  Your point seems to be that I suggested you should stop locking your door.  Which seems odd. 
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It's a lock that maybe 1% of the population has (or a similar lock).  Not many people are spending $145 plus shipping for a pair of locks when the most popular pair at home depot are $33.  I mean it's called "Ultimate" right in it's name, I'd consider that a pretty extreme lock.  Sounds like you're giving me an anecdotal answer to a much broader question.  Most people have a lock on their home that can either be kicked in or otherwise pretty easily circumvented (I would assume you're making a similar argument for why walls don't work).

On the last page you said "I think ideally I’d like to discover what a wall is effective at doing."  Then gave an example of a wall that (in your mind) only made people feel safer, though it didn't actually make them safer. 

I'm giving you another example which is likely the same case for most people - door locks.  I've lived in my current house for 6 years now, and I don't know if my door locks have actually prevented a single thing that I wanted them to prevent.  If someone wanted to get into my home, as I'd argue is the case with the majority of American homes - a swift kick to the door or a rock/brick through a window would do the trick.  So what are their door and window locks actually doing?  Just making them feel safer?  If we shouldn't have a wall because the only thing they do is make us feel safer - then why do most people have door and window locks? 

 
matttyl said:
It's a lock that maybe 1% of the population has (or a similar lock).  Not many people are spending $145 plus shipping for a pair of locks when the most popular pair at home depot are $33.  I mean it's called "Ultimate" right in it's name, I'd consider that a pretty extreme lock.  Sounds like you're giving me an anecdotal answer to a much broader question.  Most people have a lock on their home that can either be kicked in or otherwise pretty easily circumvented (I would assume you're making a similar argument for why walls don't work).

On the last page you said "I think ideally I’d like to discover what a wall is effective at doing."  Then gave an example of a wall that (in your mind) only made people feel safer, though it didn't actually make them safer. 

I'm giving you another example which is likely the same case for most people - door locks.  I've lived in my current house for 6 years now, and I don't know if my door locks have actually prevented a single thing that I wanted them to prevent.  If someone wanted to get into my home, as I'd argue is the case with the majority of American homes - a swift kick to the door or a rock/brick through a window would do the trick.  So what are their door and window locks actually doing?  Just making them feel safer?  If we shouldn't have a wall because the only thing they do is make us feel safer - then why do most people have door and window locks? 
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Because in order to bypass them you have to make enough noise to alert people who can then respond.  Which is why people with money get alarms, so there’s always noise and people always respond. 

 
Henry Ford said:
Because in order to bypass them you have to make enough noise to alert people who can then respond.  Which is why people with money get alarms, so there’s always noise and people always respond. 
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No one is close enough to hear it where I live (roughly 3 acre lots in the area).  So the same question is there for everyone in my neighborhood, and really zip code and most of the surrounding ones. 

So in order for my locks to be effective, I also need alarms and/or 24 hour surveillance?  Again, most don't have those and couldn't afford one if they wanted it - I just have a security camera system that wouldn't do anything till after the fact (if they didn't steal the system itself).  Seems like you're actually saying "no, don't just use your locks, do more."  Isn't that the point of the wall? 

For clarity sake - I'm not saying I'm for "the wall".  But if you're asking what they're good for aside from giving us piece of mind, for many/most people that's all their door locks do too.  What about computer security, encryption, passwords and all that stuff - doesn't stop people/corporations from getting hacked left and right and people information stolen/sold.

You presented what I thought was an honest question, and I'm giving what I think is an honest answer.  Just because someone could kick in my back door (or simply break the glass in my sliding back door) doesn't mean I don't use the door locks on them - even if all it's doing is making me feel safer.

 
matttyl said:
No one is close enough to hear it where I live (roughly 3 acre lots in the area).  So the same question is there for everyone in my neighborhood, and really zip code and most of the surrounding ones. 

So in order for my locks to be effective, I also need alarms and/or 24 hour surveillance?  Again, most don't have those and couldn't afford one if they wanted it - I just have a security camera system that wouldn't do anything till after the fact (if they didn't steal the system itself).  Seems like you're actually saying "no, don't just use your locks, do more."  Isn't that the point of the wall? 

For clarity sake - I'm not saying I'm for "the wall".  But if you're asking what they're good for aside from giving us piece of mind, for many/most people that's all their door locks do too.  What about computer security, encryption, passwords and all that stuff - doesn't stop people/corporations from getting hacked left and right and people information stolen/sold.

You presented what I thought was an honest question, and I'm giving what I think is an honest answer.  Just because someone could kick in my back door (or simply break the glass in my sliding back door) doesn't mean I don't use the door locks on them - even if all it's doing is making me feel safer.
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1. You would hear it;

2. You can hear glass breaking for 3 acres;

3. If no one could possibly hear your door being kicked in or your windows breaking, no, cheap locks aren’t very effective at anything but making you feel better. 

 
Henry Ford said:
1. You would hear it;

2. You can hear glass breaking for 3 acres;

3. If no one could possibly hear your door being kicked in or your windows breaking, no, cheap locks aren’t very effective at anything but making you feel better. 
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I wouldn't be home.  I don't work from home.  I'm not always home.  I'm not worried about someone breaking in when I'm home, honestly.  I'm worried about coming home to a house that's been broken into (happened twice when I was growing up).  Still lock my doors and close my garage door when I leave. 

We're getting way off topic here, but I hope you at least see my point.  Walls can be circumvented.  So can locks on doors and windows.  So can passwords and encryption.  Doesn't mean we don't have and use those things. 

 
matttyl said:
I wouldn't be home.  I don't work from home.  I'm not always home.  I'm not worried about someone breaking in when I'm home, honestly.  I'm worried about coming home to a house that's been broken into (happened twice when I was growing up).  Still lock my doors and close my garage door when I leave. 

We're getting way off topic here, but I hope you at least see my point.  Walls can be circumvented.  So can locks on doors and windows.  So can passwords and encryption.  Doesn't mean we don't have and use those things. 
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I see the point you’re trying to make.  It’s just not as good as you seem to think it is. 

 
@matttyl

If someone came to you, and you only had those silly doorknob locks on your doors, and said “we can have 24 hour a day surveillance of your home with armed response in moments for a cost of $10 per month or we can install a deadbolt on your door for $75,000.00, which would you prefer?” what would your response be?

 
If the wall were free, and had no additional environmental, land appropriation, and "cutting us off from the Rio Grande" (among others, I'm sure) costs, and there were a way for people applying for asylum to get through to do so, I don't think anyone would oppose it.  But it isn't free, it's exorbitantly expensive, it does have massive environmental and land appropriation costs, it would cut us off from the Rio Grande, people wanting asylum could get through by climbing/etc but that really only makes it tough for the most vulnerable populations, and those costs are not acceptable for a "solution" that doesn't actually keep out what we're ostensibly trying to keep out..

 
Henry Ford said:
@matttyl

If someone came to you, and you only had those silly doorknob locks on your doors, and said “we can have 24 hour a day surveillance of your home with armed response in moments for a cost of $10 per month or we can install a deadbolt on your door for $75,000.00, which would you prefer?” what would your response be?
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I'd be curious where in the world you came up with your $10 and $75k figures from.

I'd also be interested in what you think "moments" means, as when my wife called 911 due to our child being unconscious from a fall and it taking an ambulance about 10-15 minutes to arrive (from a facility far closer to us than our closest law enforcement agency). 

I'd then think of why I need either, as there hasn't been a break-in in our neighbor hood the entire time I've lived there.  I have a police officer across the street, as well as an ex FBI agent just down the street - both of which would arrive much quicker than any other "armed response" once contacted.  Also, I already have deadbolts on 2 points of entry into house - so is my home already worth $150k just from those?

 
matttyl said:
I wouldn't be home.  I don't work from home.  I'm not always home.  I'm not worried about someone breaking in when I'm home, honestly.  I'm worried about coming home to a house that's been broken into (happened twice when I was growing up).  Still lock my doors and close my garage door when I leave. 
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A good dog is a great deterrent.

 
msommer said:
Walls, like chains, are as strong as their weakest link
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If a wall breaks at its weakest point, I don't think the rest of the wall becomes useless. It really wouldnt matter since flooding would knock the whole thing down already, but since we are nerding this thread up with random debate, I am in!

Also would like to add that carrying a 40ft ladder for miles is about the worst thing I can think of. But that's a former painter speaking. We HATED the forty. 

 
matttyl said:
I'd be curious where in the world you came up with your $10 and $75k figures from.

I'd also be interested in what you think "moments" means, as when my wife called 911 due to our child being unconscious from a fall and it taking an ambulance about 10-15 minutes to arrive (from a facility far closer to us than our closest law enforcement agency). 

I'd then think of why I need either, as there hasn't been a break-in in our neighbor hood the entire time I've lived there.  I have a police officer across the street, as well as an ex FBI agent just down the street - both of which would arrive much quicker than any other "armed response" once contacted.  Also, I already have deadbolts on 2 points of entry into house - so is my home already worth $150k just from those?
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The figures are kind of random, primarily because the Border Security, Economic Modernization, and Immigration Reform Act was projected to increase revenues by $276 billion while only costing $33 billion over ten years.  So it would provide for reinforcement of existing pedestrian fencing, replacement of some vehicle fencing with pedestrian fencing, 24/7 surveillance of 100% of the border, doubling the number of border patrol agents (and therefore ideally halving response time), and would cost negative $243 billion over ten years. 

By contrast, "the Wall" will cost $25 billion plus maintenance to build and will do none of those things

So really, it should have been something like "we will pay you $25,000.00 to surveil your home and halve our response time (though perhaps end the response time given that there will be approximately one agent on shift per 350 yards of the border - 7 days x 3 shifts per day = 21 shifts, divided by 5 = just over 4 shift weeks, 40,000 agents for 2,000 miles) or you can pay us $25,000.00 to install deadbolts."  Hopefully someone who didn't go to law school will check my math on that.

 
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And, again, a dog is mainly a great deterrent because of warning.  A barking dog is an alert, like a broken door or window.

 
Sand said:
A good dog is a great deterrent.
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You're damn straight.  Unfortunately I put one down yesterday, and had to put another down this past summer.  We were at 3, and now we're at 1.  The one we have is the feistiest, though.  An Aussie Cattle dog mix. 

 
matttyl said:
You're damn straight.  Unfortunately I put one down yesterday, and had to put another down this past summer.  We were at 3, and now we're at 1.  The one we have is the feistiest, though.  An Aussie Cattle dog mix. 
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I'm so sorry for your loss.

I have a corgi/cattle dog mix that is also insane.

 
Henry Ford said:
I'm so sorry for your loss.

I have a corgi/cattle dog mix that is also insane.
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The one we put down was a "senior rescue" that we got 4.5 years ago and were told he'd have 6-12 months left to live.  We've been preparing for this for 2+ years.  The one from the summer really hurt - especially explaining to a 3 year old why the Paw Patrol can't go find Luke and bring him home. 

But yes, Cattle dogs are a far superior dog to anything else. 

 
matttyl said:
The one we put down was a "senior rescue" that we got 4.5 years ago and were told he'd have 6-12 months left to live.  We've been preparing for this for 2+ years.  The one from the summer really hurt - especially explaining to a 3 year old why the Paw Patrol can't go find Luke and bring him home. 

But yes, Cattle dogs are a far superior dog to anything else. 
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I could never do senior rescue.  Too much loss for me.  You're a saint.

 
matttyl said:
Sounds like a lot of people are taking their home security far more seriously than our country is taking border security. 

I guess what I'm asking, and maybe what Henry is actually arguing - Are we only as safe as we feel?

In the end, maybe the only thing my own door locks have done is locked me out of my own house when I don't have the key. So not only do they apparently not do what they're intended to do (they certainly aren't as sophisticated as Henry's locks), they've become a hindrance.  So I should just remove my door locks?
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It’s almost as of home security is different than at the border?

 
sho nuff said:
It’s almost as of home security is different than at the border?
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Well of course, but there are similarities.  You'd like to keep people off of your property and out of your house - that's the assumption of what a wall would do, and what current border security measures do.  Things at the border have to be more shophisticated (see what I did there?), but you're taking certain levels of security at both.  Be it a door, a lock, a video camera, a drone, hired security agents, or potentially a wall.  Just depends on the measures you want to go to.  Henry thought he needed the "Ultimate lock", I thought security cameras (and my gun wielding neighbors) and my dogs would be enough with my "basic locks".  People with money, and more to lose, might hire private security, have 24/7 surveillance.....and build walls/fences.  It's all a matter of the measures you'd like to take. 

 
Godsbrother said:
Yeah but you need another ladder on the other side to get down  and we all know there aren't many Mexicans with 2 grand laying around.  This plan is foolproof.
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Even a prison isn’t foolproof, but you wouldn’t build one without walls

 
matttyl said:
You're damn straight.  Unfortunately I put one down yesterday, and had to put another down this past summer.  We were at 3, and now we're at 1.  The one we have is the feistiest, though.  An Aussie Cattle dog mix. 
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Sorry, GB.  A year ago my wife and kids went to the local shelter and got a hound/boxer mix.  Well, evidently the one we got was all hound.  Sweet as anything but he's big, has a booming bark, and notices everything going on outside.  

If a random person I sure as hell wouldn't chance entering my house with my dog staring at me through a window.

 
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matttyl said:
Well of course, but there are similarities.  You'd like to keep people off of your property and out of your house - that's the assumption of what a wall would do, and what current border security measures do.  Things at the border have to be more shophisticated (see what I did there?), but you're taking certain levels of security at both.  Be it a door, a lock, a video camera, a drone, hired security agents, or potentially a wall.  Just depends on the measures you want to go to.  Henry thought he needed the "Ultimate lock", I thought security cameras (and my gun wielding neighbors) and my dogs would be enough with my "basic locks".  People with money, and more to lose, might hire private security, have 24/7 surveillance.....and build walls/fences.  It's all a matter of the measures you'd like to take. 
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Yes, I also think cameras at the border along with 40,000 border patrol agents would be plenty along with our current fencing.

 
Henry Ford said:
Yes, I also think cameras at the border along with 40,000 border patrol agents would be plenty along with our current fencing.
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I'd prefer to see stout barriers so we can more efficiently place our human assets.  100% coverage ain't gonna happen, but getting more help at ports of entry will pay off for all.

 
Rove! said:
Even a prison isn’t foolproof, but you wouldn’t build one without walls
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So if one could show you a prison without walls that works, and for instance has had only 20 inmates escape in almost 70 years, that seems like we could all agree, right?

 
Henry Ford said:
So if one could show you a prison without walls that works, and for instance has had only 20 inmates escape in almost 70 years, that seems like we could all agree, right?
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On how to build a prison?  You are advocating that future prisons be built without walls?  What about cells?   Tell me more

 
Instead of spending billions of dollars building an overpriced wall to keep immigrants out, why don’t use that money to hire the immigrants to rebuild our schools, bridges, roads, etc?  

 
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