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Spreading Lies and Trolling - Please Be Considerate Of Moderators (1 Viewer)

Joe Bryant

Joe Bryant

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Staff member
Don't do either of them if you want to post here. 

1. Spreading Lies.

A poster this morning accused us of not addressing someone spreading lies. That is not correct. 

I have said this numerous times in the last few days. The accusations of posters spreading lies is serious. Accusing us of doing nothing to address it is serious as well. 

If you see someone spreading falsehoods please do this:

Report it. In the report, include a link clearly showing what is false and what you think is correct. Please be specific. 

I honestly don't know another way to address this.

We're not going to start suspending posters every time someone claims they said something they believe isn't correct. 

Don't report something saying: "He said "Medicare for all is bad and that's a lie".  "Medicare for all is bad" isn't a lie. it's an opinion. 

Don't report something saying: "Trump is doomed and he won't make it to November". That's not a lie. That's an opinion. 

The board will be much better if we can focus on discussing the opinions and more importantly, WHY we think them. 

Please do that. 

2. Trolling.

Trolling is difficult as it's often a gray area. And I'll define "trolling" pretty broadly as someone posting something with the intent of getting a reaction out of another. Often times, people don't really even believe that much in what they're actually saying, they're saying what they're saying primarily hoping for a reaction out of the "other". Don't do that. 

I get it that all conversation has some element of a reaction from another. But most people know when they're trolling. Don't do it. 

Please be considerate of the Moderators.

In the same way as point #1, if you see someone trolling, report it. But please respect the moderator's time. When you report something, know what it means is Maurile, or Aaron or Clayton or myself will stop what they're working on and spend time trying to see what you're reporting. In other words, it needs to be pretty far over the line. If what's reported is minor, that's a waste of time for those guys. Who don't have time to waste. So please be considerate there. Someone who repeatedly reports things that are not near offensive enough to report won't be allowed to post here. 

 
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parasaurolophus said:
Oh man. I really wish i could see some of the "spreading lies" reports that will come in. 
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We'll see.

Hopefully people are respectful of what we're asking and will include a link and backup to be clear on what they think and why they believe it's an intentional lie and not an opinion. 

 
Summer Wheat said:
There are different types of trolling.   A guy here posts "Tweets" all the time just to get reactions and responses.  That is subtle trolling and should stop as well.
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Im not sure that is trolling...posting tweets as a means to start discussion or things that are on topic...it may get spammy at times, but I don't think they are to get reactions.

 
Seems like some posters around here don't like certain media sources used to cite claims.  I' assume those are some of the ones being called lies. It's a pretty standard response around here to attack the source of the material instead of the claim itself.  

 
Max Power said:
Seems like some posters around here don't like certain media sources used to cite claims.  I' assume those are some of the ones being called lies. It's a pretty standard response around here to attack the source of the material instead of the claim itself.  
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We've established sites fall pretty much in the ball park of this chart. https://www.adfontesmedia.com/ . It's not gospel but it's a good ballpark.

When you link to a site, understand this will be a factor. 

But with that said, calling something "a lie" is pretty easy to structure. List the claim. Say why you think it's wrong and post your link to back up what you're saying. 

In other words, don't just say "That's not true". Say, "That's not true. Say what you think IS true. And give some backup as to why you think it. 

Then you have a real discussion instead of boring "Yes it is - No it isn't" posts.

 
Don't Noonan said:
A lot of folks just don't understand the difference between facts and opinions.  
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I think that's part of the issue as well.

As I said above,

Don't report something saying: "He said "Medicare for all is bad and that's a lie".  "Medicare for all is bad" isn't a lie. it's an opinion. 

Don't report something saying: "Trump is doomed and he won't make it to November". That's not a lie. That's an opinion. 
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I don't want to see someone report another poster for what they call a lie when it's an opinion. 

 
Max Power said:
Seems like some posters around here don't like certain media sources used to cite claims.  I' assume those are some of the ones being called lies. It's a pretty standard response around here to attack the source of the material instead of the claim itself.  
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I don't think that is what is being called lies...but it is common to question biased sources when op-eds are presented or even articles with a mix of fact or presentation of facts that aren't facts.  Saints took apart one last week that was pretty bad.

If I question a site...I try to cite the bias chart or other bias check on the matter to show its not just my opinion about the site.

 
Joe Bryant said:
We've established sites fall pretty much in the ball park of this chart. https://www.adfontesmedia.com/ . It's not gospel but it's a good ballpark.

When you link to a site, understand this will be a factor. 

But with that said, calling something "a lie" is pretty easy to structure. List the claim. Say why you think it's wrong and post your link to back up what you're saying. 

In other words, don't just say "That's not true". Say, "That's not true. Say what you think IS true. And give some backup as to why you think it. 

Then you have a real discussion instead of boring "Yes it is - No it isn't" posts.
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Shouldn't this more heavily fall on the person making the claims? Otherwise you just get right into the professional trolling wheelhouse of making tons of unsubstantiated posts that take a minute to type up, while the people correcting them are spending hours sourcing stuff to prove them wrong. Then they just make the same incorrect post a day later in another thread after they have already been proven incorrect.

 
sho nuff said:
I don't think that is what is being called lies...but it is common to question biased sources when op-eds are presented or even articles with a mix of fact or presentation of facts that aren't facts.  Saints took apart one last week that was pretty bad.

If I question a site...I try to cite the bias chart or other bias check on the matter to show its not just my opinion about the site.
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Sometimes that IS what are being called lies. 

That's what I want to be clear about. 

It's why I'm asking when someone makes the accusation another poster is lying, they give us some clarity on exactly what they're saying. 

Lying and intentionally trying to spread them is serious. It's why we're asking people help us there. But we have to have some specifics from people. It can't be just "_________ is spreading lies". 

 
huthut said:
Shouldn't this more heavily fall on the person making the claims? Otherwise you just get right into the professional trolling wheelhouse of making tons of unsubstantiated posts that take a minute to type up, while the people correcting them are spending hours sourcing stuff to prove them wrong. Then they just make the same incorrect post a day later in another thread after they have already been proven incorrect.
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Yes. That's why we also ask posters to offer some backup for why they think what they think. 

If a person is reported for intentionally spreading lies and it's clear that's what they're doing, they won't be posting here. If you see someone do that, please report AND help us by including the links to the truth in the report showing the person is lying. 

Note, that's not the same as reporting a person for posting "Donald Trump is doomed. He won't make it to November". That's an opinion. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
Can we see an example of what was reported? 
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We're not going to get into debating those. 

Most of what we hear on the board are the super general, "______________ is spreading lies". With nothing more than that. Which is tough for a mod to do much with. 

Please from here on, let's do what we're saying of if you see something that is trying to spread lies:

Report it. In the report, include a link clearly showing what is false and what you think is correct. Please be specific. 
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Thanks.

 
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The General said:
May I ask what happens when someone reports a lie? What is the outcome?
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16 people respond to it, provide well-sourced information that rebuts it, the OP ignores those and doesn't reply, then re-posts the same stuff a few days later, no one spends the time it would take to dig through hundreds of pages to find the previous 10 instances of the same misstatements and corrections to report it, 16 people respond to it...

 
The General said:
May I ask what happens when someone reports a lie? What is the outcome?
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We haven't had one yet reported as we've asked.

My guess is it would be something like this:

Person posts something seen as a lie by others.

Another poster reports the post and clearly includes a verifiable link with facts showing the post was a lie.

The poster is warned he posted a lie. First time, he's probably given the benefit of the doubt he shared bad information. 

If he does it again, the poster would be suspended. 

That's my estimation of how it would work.

 
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
16 people respond to it, provide well-sourced information that rebuts it, the OP ignores those and doesn't reply, then re-posts the same stuff a few days later, no one spends the time it would take to dig through hundreds of pages to find the previous 10 instances of the same misstatements and corrections to report it, 16 people respond to it...
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That could happen I suppose.

I think it would be tons better if people did as I suggested

My guess is it would be something like this:

Person posts something seen as a lie by others.

Another poster reports the post and clearly includes a verifiable link with facts showing the post was a lie.

The poster is warned he posted a lie. First time, he's probably given the benefit of the doubt he shared bad information. 

If he does it again, the poster would be suspended. 

That's my estimation of how it would work.
Click to expand...

 
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parasaurolophus said:
Oh man. I really wish i could see some of the "spreading lies" reports that will come in. 
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I'll guess it's stuff like "there was no evidence of a quid pro quo" or something about "Democrats not allowing Republicans in secret basement testimonies".

Although these statements aren't true (maybe one could argue there is a little bit of a gray area but I don't think so), personally I don't think they are lies as the poster isn't generally trying to deceive.  That's a component of a lie.  If they do know and are, in fact, lying, I'd call that trolling.  I suspect it's hard for a moderator to know the intent.

 
Juxtatarot said:
I'll guess it's stuff like "there was no evidence of a quid pro quo" or something about "Democrats not allowing Republicans in secret basement testimonies".

Although these statements aren't true (maybe one could argue there is a little bit of a gray area but I don't think so), personally I don't think they are lies as the poster isn't generally trying to deceive.  That's a component of a lie.  If they do know and are, in fact, lying, I'd call that trolling.  I suspect it's hard for a moderator to know the intent.
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Wait...so you are saying that it is a lie to believe there was no evidence of a quid pro quo

 
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
16 people respond to it, provide well-sourced information that rebuts it, the OP ignores those and doesn't reply, then re-posts the same stuff a few days later, no one spends the time it would take to dig through hundreds of pages to find the previous 10 instances of the same misstatements and corrections to report it, 16 people respond to it...
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Yup. This

 
msommer said:
Yup. This
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Only if you deliberately choose to ignore what i suggested. 

My guess is it would be something like this:

Person posts something seen as a lie by others.

Another poster reports the post and clearly includes a verifiable link with facts showing the post was a lie.

The poster is warned he posted a lie. First time, he's probably given the benefit of the doubt he shared bad information. 

If he does it again, the poster would be suspended. 

That's my estimation of how it would work.
Click to expand...

 
msommer said:
Sorry Joe, but it's not as if lies in posts were invented yesterday. And since no one has reported a lie yet per your quote, my conclusion is that people can't be bothered to do so.
I may be wrong. Wouldn't be the first or likely the last time
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I outlined this yesterday.

I wouldn't assume that nobody has reported one in the first 24 hours as an indication people can't be bothered to do so. 

 
Juxtatarot said:
I'll guess it's stuff like "there was no evidence of a quid pro quo" or something about "Democrats not allowing Republicans in secret basement testimonies".

Although these statements aren't true (maybe one could argue there is a little bit of a gray area but I don't think so), personally I don't think they are lies as the poster isn't generally trying to deceive.  That's a component of a lie.  If they do know and are, in fact, lying, I'd call that trolling.  I suspect it's hard for a moderator to know the intent.
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Yep, there's truth to George Costanza's "It's not lie if you believe it's true" bit. Just because someone may be wrong, doesn't mean they are lying or intentionally spreading blatantly false information.

 
msommer said:
Sorry Joe, but it's not as if lies in posts were invented yesterday. And since no one has reported a lie yet per your quote, my conclusion is that people can't be bothered to do so.
I may be wrong. Wouldn't be the first or likely the last time
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I potentially see that as a good thing. Accusing someone of lying seems like a pretty serious claim and will potentially carry a heavy punishment (at least, as heavy of a punishment as a free online message board can carry). So, in my mind, it shouldn't be easy to suspend someone for lying. If a poster thinks another poster should be suspended for lying, they should have to put together a pretty good case.

 
Megla said:
Its so sad that this thread ever had to be created, this place has become so toxic.
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It isn't at all unique to this place. It's a product of deliberate actions from those in government and media attacking the very concept of truth. It also isn't without (some pretty ghastly) historical comparisons.

 
When I was a boy I grew up in a community of large families.  Every mother in that community at one time or another would succumb to total exasperation as her kids would badger her to mediate ongoing and incredibly petty and meaningless disputes among her children.  'He's touching me", "she took the last piece, Yeah well he took a bigger piece, did not, did too"  It was why moms from that era turned to drugs, valium and booze mostly.  Its why the Stones could have a song about Mother's Little Helper. 

I hear the same exasperated tone coming now from Joe and it saddens me.  He is being worn out by the petty bickering, but like young spoiled children you refuse to understand that you have gone too far.  When the consequence comes, as it always does, it will seemingly have come without notice to those involved, while to others, well it will be long overdue and righteous, if terribly sad.  If I could physically walk among you like a father returning home from work I would dish out the punishments in an effort to support my beleaguered spouse but alas you are all nothing more than a fiction, angry, petty fictions in many cases, no more real than a will-o-the-wisp, than a ghost in dense fog.

 
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Ditkaless Wonders said:
When I was a boy I grew up in a community of large families.  Every mother in that community at one time or another would succumb to total exasperation as her kids would badger her to mediate ongoing and incredibly petty and meaningless disputes among her children.  'He's touching me", "she took the last piece, Yeah well he took a bigger piece, did not, did too"  It was why moms from that era turned to drugs, valium and booze mostly.  Its why the Stones could have a song about Mother's Little Helper. 

I hear the same exasperated tone coming now from Joe and it saddens me.  He is being worn out by the petty bickering, but like young spoiled children you refuse to understand that you have gone too far.  When the consequence comes, as it always does, it will seemingly have come without notice to those involved, while to others, well it will be long overdo and righteous, if terribly sad.  If I could physically walk among yo like a father returning home from work I would dish out the punishments in an effort to support my beleaguered spouse but alas, you are all nothing more than a fiction, angry, petty fictions in many cases, but no more real than a will-o-the-wisp, than a ghost in dense fog.
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And I have a feeling that many are reading this thinking, "Great point, Ditkaless Wonders! Those other posters - not me! - really need to read this and take it to heart." Which is exactly what happens when I finally snap and yell "Stop!" at my kids; they each think I must be telling their sibling to stop and I'm not talking to them. But I'm telling all of them to stop. I don't care who started it. I don't care what justification they have for their role in it. I don't even care, at that moment, if they are truly innocent. All I want is exactly what I said; for it to "Stop!"

 
dgreen said:
And I have a feeling that many are reading this thinking, "Great point, Ditkaless Wonders! Those other posters - not me! - really need to read this and take it to heart." Which is exactly what happens when I finally snap and yell "Stop!" at my kids; they each think I must be telling their sibling to stop and I'm not talking to them. But I'm telling all of them to stop. I don't care who started it. I don't care what justification they have for their role in it. I don't even care, at that moment, if they are truly innocent. All I want is exactly what I said; for it to "Stop!"
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Why is always me that is told to stop and not .... who started it ...

 
Don't Noonan said:
The squistion tweets have been complained about but they already said they won't stop him.
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Mr Anonymous said:
If I had the time, I'd respond to every Tweet that squistion posts with a Tweet that contradicts it and quickly show Joe how useless carpet bombing this place with Tweets is.
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I've noticed that in the past few months, Squistion has cut back significantly on the number of tweets that he posts. Not only does he post fewer tweets, but they're now mostly links to valid news stories (as opposed to his previous pattern of posting random opinions from people).

 
sho nuff said:
Im not sure that is trolling...posting tweets as a means to start discussion or things that are on topic...it may get spammy at times, but I don't think they are to get reactions.
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The occasional tweet or posted article seems fine - I myself post the occasional tweet - but if one is doing either on a regular basis, at some point you have to wonder if they have their own thoughts or if they are only capable of posting those of others. 

 
Juxtatarot said:
I'll guess it's stuff like "there was no evidence of a quid pro quo" or something about "Democrats not allowing Republicans in secret basement testimonies".

Although these statements aren't true (maybe one could argue there is a little bit of a gray area but I don't think so), personally I don't think they are lies as the poster isn't generally trying to deceive.  That's a component of a lie.  If they do know and are, in fact, lying, I'd call that trolling.  I suspect it's hard for a moderator to know the intent.
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When I am accused of lying, it is usually 'quoting me' saying something I did not even say.   

 
Ghost Rider said:
The occasional tweet or posted article seems fine - I myself post the occasional tweet - but if one is doing either on a regular basis, at some point you have to wonder if they have their own thoughts or if they are only capable of posting those of others. 
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Sure...does not make it trolling though.

 
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