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Adding and dropping players to screw your opponent (1 Viewer)

D

Dexter Manley

Footballguy
Background: I'm in a 16 team league with a bunch of friends that's ultra competitive. Tons of trash talking, making fun of others, etc. Well this league has an abnormal waivers process. If you drop a player, they are put on waivers for 48 hours and can be claimed. This is fairly standard. All other players, however, are available to be picked up at any time -- they're not even locked during the games. It's a first come, first serve, free for all for free agents.

A couple owners in the league are already closing in on 20 transactions, as you might expect. I've been trying to change this for years, to no avail. This year I got together with a couple guys to try and vote in a rule charging for player adds, with the caveat that you get your first 15 moves free. It didn't pass.

I then informed the league how this rule could be easily abused. For example, say an owner only has one defense/st rostered and it's their by week. Let's also say that this owner is a procrastinator and won't look to pick up another D/ST until Saturday. Well his opponent could add and drop every available D/ST on Friday night, so they would all be placed on the waiver wire and claims wouldn't go through until Sunday night after the games are played. The guy needing a D/ST would be screwed.

No one cared about this abuse scenario, and the commish told me I could do it if I wanted. Everyone thought it was funny.

Well my opponent this week needs to pick up a kicker as his has a bye week. Knowing him, he probably won't do it until Friday night at the earliest. If he doesn't act early, as I expect, late Friday afternoon I can add and drop every available kicker, and keep the Baltimore K on my roster for the week as he plays on Monday night. This will ensure my opponent doesn't have a K to go against me.

If I do this I know my opponent will be furious (he was one of the owners on my side wrt changing to a legit waivers process), there will be some drama in the league, and some owners will think it's hillarious. I figure this move might be the impetus to actually vote in decent free agent pickup rules next season.

The only con I can think of is that the commish had my back on dependent subs wrt Hurricane Ike, overruling most of the league. If I do this and the commish waives the 48 hour waiver period on a kicker for my opponent, he will be contradicting himself as to what he told me during the draft and this could create some tension between us.

Can anyone think of a legitimate reason why I shouldn't go through with what I've dubbed "Operation Catch and Release" ? I would like to hear opinions and from people who have experienced something akin to Operation Catch and Release. Right now, I can't think of a reason not to do this. It seems like the logical thing to do.

 
yes, there are several reasons. one, the guy you're going to annoy was on your side in this entire argument. two, the commissioner has helped you in the past, and you're going to alienate him. three, it's not going to change anything, since no one that opposed your idea will care.

it's a nice idea in theory, but it won't change anything. you need to do this on a week when you are playing someone who opposed your idea - not an ally.

 
Dexter Manley said:
Can anyone think of a legitimate reason why I shouldn't go through with what I've dubbed "Operation Catch and Release" ? I would like to hear opinions and from people who have experienced something akin to Operation Catch and Release. Right now, I can't think of a reason not to do this. It seems like the logical thing to do.
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Because it's a ####ty thing to do?
 
tomarken said:
Dexter Manley said:
Can anyone think of a legitimate reason why I shouldn't go through with what I've dubbed "Operation Catch and Release" ? I would like to hear opinions and from people who have experienced something akin to Operation Catch and Release. Right now, I can't think of a reason not to do this. It seems like the logical thing to do.
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Because it's a ####ty thing to do?
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that too.
 
I had a similar experience. I pushed the league to prevent people from churning players for the sole purpose of locking them up. I was voted down. I said, "Doesn't anyone care about this problem?" One dooshy guy said, "You're the only person who cares, which probably means that it's not important hahahaha."

Week 2, Baltimore/Houston game gets postponed. And by sheer coincidence, the dooshy guy happens to have the Ravens as his only defense.

I immediately add/dropped every single free agent defense except the Texans.

Guess who's now crying foul and SCREAMING for a rule change? :goodposting:

 
If someone did that in a league I commish I would immediately lock their team and find a new owner. No warning, nothing. Anyone that would do that is not playing within the spirit of the rules, and they don't belong in my leagues, even if they were just trying to make a point for a rule change.

Edited: On second thought maybe I wouldn't have ousted the owner the first time, but if I'd had previous problems with him, or if he was an extremely inactive owner, or if something else happened that was just as bad, I wouldn't have a problem with the league getting rid of him. Another poster said he would first talk to the owner about it, and I agree. If the owner was a continuous problem I would have sent an email to the league asking for his removal in a vote. Only in the cases of certain infractions would I not ask for a vote, such as non-payment, and a there are a few others in our rules.

Also replaced the words "circumvent the rules" with "spirit of the rules".

 
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JohnnyU said:
If someone did that in a league I commish I would immeadiately lock their team and find a new owner. No warning, nothing. Anyone that would circumvent the rules like that doesn't belong in my leagues, even if they were just trying to make a poinit for a rule change.
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How can it be "circumventing the rules" when it's not prohibited by the rules?Calling someone a ####head is circumventing the language filter.Calling someone a blockhead is not.
 
TommyGilmore said:
JohnnyU said:
If someone did that in a league I commish I would immeadiately lock their team and find a new owner. No warning, nothing. Anyone that would circumvent the rules like that doesn't belong in my leagues, even if they were just trying to make a poinit for a rule change.
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How can it be "circumventing the rules" when it's not prohibited by the rules?Calling someone a ####head is circumventing the language filter.Calling someone a blockhead is not.
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Ok, then, let's just change the wording to "spirit of the rules". Either way, it taks a ##### to do that.
 
JohnnyU said:
TommyGilmore said:
JohnnyU said:
If someone did that in a league I commish I would immeadiately lock their team and find a new owner. No warning, nothing. Anyone that would circumvent the rules like that doesn't belong in my leagues, even if they were just trying to make a poinit for a rule change.
Click to expand...
How can it be "circumventing the rules" when it's not prohibited by the rules?Calling someone a ####head is circumventing the language filter.Calling someone a blockhead is not.
Click to expand...
Ok, then, let's just change the wording to "spirit of the rules". Either way, it taks a ##### to do that.
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Not only is it not against the rules, the commish told me "Do it" twice at the draft when I brought up my concerns. So he basically encouraged me to do it.
 
This happened in one of my leagues once, and it was the Commish who did it. I sent him an e-mail stating that he was using a glitch in the technology to screw his opponent. If he had picked up all available defenses and hung on to them, that's strategy. But exploiting technological limitations is wrong.

To his credit, he apologized, said he made an error in judgment and reversed his transactions. Everybody makes mistakes.

But in your case, it's known to be acceptable strategy. I think it's wrong...but if it could happen to you, there's no reason you can't do it to others.

 
Dexter Manley said:
JohnnyU said:
TommyGilmore said:
JohnnyU said:
If someone did that in a league I commish I would immeadiately lock their team and find a new owner. No warning, nothing. Anyone that would circumvent the rules like that doesn't belong in my leagues, even if they were just trying to make a poinit for a rule change.
Click to expand...
How can it be "circumventing the rules" when it's not prohibited by the rules?Calling someone a ####head is circumventing the language filter.

Calling someone a blockhead is not.
Click to expand...
Ok, then, let's just change the wording to "spirit of the rules". Either way, it taks a ##### to do that.
Click to expand...
Not only is it not against the rules, the commish told me "Do it" twice at the draft when I brought up my concerns. So he basically encouraged me to do it.
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Being encouraged to do something you know is wrong, does not make it the right thing to do.
 
We have a "sportsmanship" rule which works like the definition of obscenity - I can't define it but I know it when I see it.

This is poor sportsmanship.

 
The more I think about it, there's probably a pretty good reason for me not to do this. Owners could mimic Operation: Catch and Release to cause havoc with D/ST's and K's during the week. This could cause me a headache as I'm playing D/ST by committee in this particular league.

 
JohnnyU said:
If someone did that in a league I commish I would immediately lock their team and find a new owner. No warning, nothing. Anyone that would circumvent the rules like that doesn't belong in my leagues, even if they were just trying to make a point for a rule change.
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What if he was a good friend of yours? :tinfoilhat:
 
Neil Beaufort Zod said:
This happened in one of my leagues once, and it was the Commish who did it. I sent him an e-mail stating that he was using a glitch in the technology to screw his opponent. If he had picked up all available defenses and hung on to them, that's strategy. But exploiting technological limitations is wrong.

To his credit, he apologized, said he made an error in judgment and reversed his transactions. Everybody makes mistakes.

But in your case, it's known to be acceptable strategy. I think it's wrong...but if it could happen to you, there's no reason you can't do it to others.
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There is something inherently wrong with the bolded part of your statement.
 
What about the unspoken rule in any FF League?

"Don't be an Ahole."

 
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It's a total Bush-league move.

Add a transaction fee to stop this and various other kinds of transaction silliness.

 
Del Griffith said:
JohnnyU said:
If someone did that in a league I commish I would immediately lock their team and find a new owner. No warning, nothing. Anyone that would circumvent the rules like that doesn't belong in my leagues, even if they were just trying to make a point for a rule change.
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What if he was a good friend of yours? :tinfoilhat:
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I don't invite friends to join my leagues. All the owners in my leagues are from FBGs and the internet in general. I like a lot of them, but they aren't close personal friends. I like to keep it that way.
 
JohnnyU said:
Dexter Manley said:
JohnnyU said:
TommyGilmore said:
JohnnyU said:
If someone did that in a league I commish I would immeadiately lock their team and find a new owner. No warning, nothing. Anyone that would circumvent the rules like that doesn't belong in my leagues, even if they were just trying to make a poinit for a rule change.
Click to expand...
How can it be "circumventing the rules" when it's not prohibited by the rules?Calling someone a ####head is circumventing the language filter.

Calling someone a blockhead is not.
Click to expand...
Ok, then, let's just change the wording to "spirit of the rules". Either way, it taks a ##### to do that.
Click to expand...
Not only is it not against the rules, the commish told me "Do it" twice at the draft when I brought up my concerns. So he basically encouraged me to do it.
Click to expand...
Being encouraged to do something you know is wrong, does not make it the right thing to do.
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True. But if the commish encourages you to do something that is wrong, then the commish has no grounds to lock that team and find a new owner.
 
JohnnyU said:
Dexter Manley said:
JohnnyU said:
TommyGilmore said:
JohnnyU said:
If someone did that in a league I commish I would immeadiately lock their team and find a new owner. No warning, nothing. Anyone that would circumvent the rules like that doesn't belong in my leagues, even if they were just trying to make a poinit for a rule change.
Click to expand...
How can it be "circumventing the rules" when it's not prohibited by the rules?Calling someone a ####head is circumventing the language filter.

Calling someone a blockhead is not.
Click to expand...
Ok, then, let's just change the wording to "spirit of the rules". Either way, it taks a ##### to do that.
Click to expand...
Not only is it not against the rules, the commish told me "Do it" twice at the draft when I brought up my concerns. So he basically encouraged me to do it.
Click to expand...
Being encouraged to do something you know is wrong, does not make it the right thing to do.
Click to expand...
There is nothing wrong about doing this. A good analogy would be if the Dolphins tried to get the league to ban the Wildcat Formation in the NFL before this season, because it's too unstoppable, and it was voted down by the league amidst much laughing. Would it then be wrong for the Fish to use the Wildcat Formation to run up the score on NE? No, it absolutely wouldn't.I'm just concerned with the best interests of my team, following the rules set forth by the league. Is it in my best interest to execute Operation: Catch and Release, or would this actually have a more negative effect on my team long-term? That's the question. Either way, I'm not breaking any rules, the spirit of any rules, and I'm doing nothing amoral

 
If you were playing against someone who didn't care enough to replace players on a bye, it wouldn't be any fun. Why would actively preventing him from replacing those players be considered good strategy?

If you want to make a point, maybe tell that guy to pick up his new kicker - then add/drop/lock as many players as possible at every position.

I think Yahoo actually fixed this, this year.

 
It's a pretty douchy thing to do, imo.

Just because something isn't prevented by rules doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.

The "rules" allow you to go stand on a corner and spout racial epithets at people as they pass by, but that's a pretty crappy thing to do.

Besides, you'd probably p!ss someone off and get a beat-down - which correlates to someone in your league screwing YOU later using a similar exploit. While you might say it's no big deal to take the good with the bad, the best thing to do IMO is to not manipulate things in the first place and just win on the merits of the team you put together.

 
Dexter Manley said:
I'm just concerned with the best interests of my team, following the rules set forth by the league. Is it in my best interest to execute Operation: Catch and Release, or would this actually have a more negative effect on my team long-term? That's the question. Either way, I'm not breaking any rules, the spirit of any rules, and I'm doing nothing amoral
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You're being a twit. Everyone is telling you you're being a twit. You kind of understand that you're being a twit, which is why you posted here in the first place. Trust us, you're a twit.
 
JohnnyU said:
Neil Beaufort Zod said:
This happened in one of my leagues once, and it was the Commish who did it. I sent him an e-mail stating that he was using a glitch in the technology to screw his opponent. If he had picked up all available defenses and hung on to them, that's strategy. But exploiting technological limitations is wrong.

To his credit, he apologized, said he made an error in judgment and reversed his transactions. Everybody makes mistakes.

But in your case, it's known to be acceptable strategy. I think it's wrong...but if it could happen to you, there's no reason you can't do it to others.
Click to expand...
There is something inherently wrong with the bolded part of your statement.
Click to expand...
Again, I agree it's normally a bad move and I scolded the Commish when he did it in one of my leagues. But all leagues are different. In this guy's league, it's known to be okay. If he doesn't do it, he's limiting himself. Everyone else can do it to him and there's no problem. It's like if you had a moral problem with the waiver wire. That's fine, but everyone else is going to use it against you...so you're just hurting yourself by abstaining. Remember, this guy was specifically told by the Commissioner that it's perfectly okay to do. It's one of those leagues. That might be a good reason to find a new league...but if you're in that league and you know their rules and their attitude toward playing that way, you're only hurting yourself by not utlizing a perfectly legal (and accepted, according to the league Commissioner) method of helping your team.

In this league, it's okay and accepted. Teams abstaining are at a disadvantage.

 
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On a side note - Yahoo doesn't allow this. I don't know the exact amount of time you have to hold someone before it triggers the FA-->Waiver transition, but if you pick a guy up and immediately drop him, he goes back to FA pool. I've noticed it when picking a guy up in a hurry then realizing he is either hurt, on a bye, or not quite what I wanted. I thought it was this way last year, too.

 
If it's within the rules, you have every right to do it. Just realize there will be consequences. People will probably lose respect for you; you might lose a freind; no one will trade with you in the future... If you're willing to face any adverse effects that go along with doing it, go ahead.

If someone in my league did that, I would lose all respect for them.

 
If the guy doesn't have enough foresight to replace his bye week players before Friday night and knows about this potentially happening there's no reason not to do it.

The guy will have his bye weekscovered for the rest of the time you play him.

This is no different than picking up and keeping the best WR when your opponent will need to pick one up imo.

It's not against the rules. Unspoken or not.

 
Coach3K said:
On a side note - Yahoo doesn't allow this. I don't know the exact amount of time you have to hold someone before it triggers the FA-->Waiver transition, but if you pick a guy up and immediately drop him, he goes back to FA pool. I've noticed it when picking a guy up in a hurry then realizing he is either hurt, on a bye, or not quite what I wanted. I thought it was this way last year, too.
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It may have been, not 100% sure. Thier default waiver system is usually bad. I picked up Mendenhall quickly yesterday and then dropped him for a QB, but I was "glad" (you know, morally) that someone else was able to pick him up.
 
Ramos said:
This is no different than picking up and keeping the best WR when your opponent will need to pick one up imo.
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Of course it's different. You're making transactions that have no possibility of providing value to your team, just to screw another owner. If you go and pick up Antonio Bryant, he will be a player on your team. He might even be a player you'd start, depending on the rest of your roster and what happens with injuries. When you just churn the free agent pool, it has no effect at all on your team.
 
well you described your league as ultra competitive and owners procrastinate picking someone up til the last second

that sounds like completely different things to me

so you probably have gungho's who want the rule taken care of = ultra competitive

and procrastinators = don't really care about a new rule until it bites em

how bout send a PM to your ally and commish behind the scenes telling them that you'll let him pick the kicker of his choice and to just play along with you

pick up and drop all kickers, and get into a false-arguing match with ally, commish, and yourself (make the posts heated with a few "your-mama's" in them)

it'll stir up your whole league

at 1150am on sunday make a post saying you'll back off and allow him a kicker if the league will discuss changing the rule ASAP

the commish, will agree to allow your ally a kicker and change the rule or force-feed vote to rule change so "THIS DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN"

should be fun times

 
I agree with your thoughts and premise - the commish should really consider changing that - 16 people - there's bound to be some dude that does it - here's my thoughts:

1. DO NOT BE THAT DUDE

2. State the scenario Sunday morning before the kickoff as I do side with your argument

3. If the rule does get abused - I don't know if I'd want to be in that league....

4. It's a game - nothing more - I know there's "big money" leagues - but you know what - if you want to gamble - there's cheap airfare and hotels in vegas....if this is a "big money" league - then I'd actually pull league members aside one by one and get a consensus.

I think this is really a commish issue - everybody should play nice - its a game - in my league one owner emailed the entire league before kickoff to let them know that his opponents team had an illegal lineup (= no points)....there's a way to be competitive without finding technicalities to show a W in a game....

That's my take - everyone will have their own....

 
Dexter Manley said:
There is nothing wrong about doing this. A good analogy would be if the Dolphins tried to get the league to ban the Wildcat Formation in the NFL before this season, because it's too unstoppable, and it was voted down by the league amidst much laughing. Would it then be wrong for the Fish to use the Wildcat Formation to run up the score on NE? No, it absolutely wouldn't.

I'm just concerned with the best interests of my team, following the rules set forth by the league. Is it in my best interest to execute Operation: Catch and Release, or would this actually have a more negative effect on my team long-term? That's the question. Either way, I'm not breaking any rules, the spirit of any rules, and I'm doing nothing amoral
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You're not technically breaking any league rules, apparently.You absolutely are violating the spirit of the rules though. That's inarguable.

The 48-hour waiver period mechanism is designed to allow every team the opportunity to obtain a guy that was recently dropped by another owner, not just whomever happens to notice the drop first. It is quite obviously not designed to allow one owner to block the entire free agent pool from the rest of the league. No sane person would disagree with this.

Now whether engaging in such a bushleague move elevates to the level of amoral is debateable, but IMO you're on pretty thin ice.

 
davearm said:
Dexter Manley said:
There is nothing wrong about doing this. A good analogy would be if the Dolphins tried to get the league to ban the Wildcat Formation in the NFL before this season, because it's too unstoppable, and it was voted down by the league amidst much laughing. Would it then be wrong for the Fish to use the Wildcat Formation to run up the score on NE? No, it absolutely wouldn't.

I'm just concerned with the best interests of my team, following the rules set forth by the league. Is it in my best interest to execute Operation: Catch and Release, or would this actually have a more negative effect on my team long-term? That's the question. Either way, I'm not breaking any rules, the spirit of any rules, and I'm doing nothing amoral
Click to expand...
You're not technically breaking any league rules, apparently.You absolutely are violating the spirit of the rules though. That's inarguable.

The 48-hour waiver period mechanism is designed to allow every team the opportunity to obtain a guy that was recently dropped by another owner, not just whomever happens to notice the drop first. It is quite obviously not designed to allow one owner to block the entire free agent pool from the rest of the league. No sane person would disagree with this.

Now whether engaging in such a bushleague move elevates to the level of amoral is debateable, but IMO you're on pretty thin ice.
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:hey:
 
habsfan said:
We have a "sportsmanship" rule which works like the definition of obscenity - I can't define it but I know it when I see it.This is poor sportsmanship.
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Never had a sportsmanship rule myself, but that's a good one. I encountered this in one league I commished years ago, and when I saw what was happening made all those teams available again for the week and banned the move for future waivers. No vote; it was a unilateral decision. I can't believe the cases posted in this thread where it's the commishes who think it's so funny. If your commish is encouraging you to play that game then I would do so, and then publically thank him for the approval on the league message board.eta--I see it's not the prevailing mood here; I do like the suggestion from Lash, given that the owner you're playing against is apparently in agreement regarding changing the rule. You're asking him to stick his own neck out to make the point though--which he might not want to risk. Bottom line is that it's a rule that should be changed.
 
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If that's what it will take to win then your team must be in bad shape....

also , by the time it took you to type the post I hope your opponent added somone....

PS - YOU NEED TO CHARGE FOR TRANSACTIONS.

 
I've done something very similar in a league I used to play in. My opponent dropped his kicker, and I assume was going to just grab the best one available. I did the add/drop to lock them all on waiver and beat him in the 1st round of the playoffs by 3 points. Some arguing ensued but the commish let it happen. I ended up winning the league.

I was told the league was full the following year.

In retrospect, I wish I had not done what I did. I had been in that league for 3 years, and had alot of fun during that time. I didn't know anyone IRL, but I did consider myself friends with the other guys in the leagues. Now they all think I'm an ###hole, and rightfully so.

Long story short, if you do it, it'll be bad for the league's longevity (or your tenure in it).

 
I've decided that if my opponent hasn't picked up a K by tomorrow morning, I'm going to send an email to our commish, detailing Operation: Catch and Release.

If he has a problem with it, then I'll abide by his decision, and he can send out a mass email stating that such tactics are prohibited. If he says I'm free to do whatever I want, then Operation: Catch and Release will commence at 1800 hours on 9/26.

The bottom line is -- What would Bill Belichek do? I think BB would definitely side with me on this one. And he's one of the greatest coaches of all time.

Btw, thanks to whoever suggested contacting the commish. :jawdrop:

 
Spin said:
I've done something very similar in a league I used to play in. My opponent dropped his kicker, and I assume was going to just grab the best one available. I did the add/drop to lock them all on waiver and beat him in the 1st round of the playoffs by 3 points. Some arguing ensued but the commish let it happen. I ended up winning the league.

I was told the league was full the following year.

In retrospect, I wish I had not done what I did. I had been in that league for 3 years, and had alot of fun during that time. I didn't know anyone IRL, but I did consider myself friends with the other guys in the leagues. Now they all think I'm an ###hole, and rightfully so.

Long story short, if you do it, it'll be bad for the league's longevity (or your tenure in it).
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You should link this post to guys in that league. I think they'd be happy to know you regret making that choice. It won't change your status, but they won't think you're a tool anymore. Everybody makes mistakes.
 
I'll also address a couple other things that people posted:

- I'm not getting kicked out of the league regardless of what I do. There's 0% chance of that happening.

- I'm not losing a friend or friends over this. I'm always amazed at stories of people's friendships being ruined by fantasy football.

- This isn't a big $$ league. It's only $50. I try to increase it every year, but get shot down.

- I don't understand the 'lose respect' angle either. I've never cheated, and will never do so.

 
There's no rule against sleeping with your best friend's wife in many states.

So obviously it's something you should do, right? I mean...since HE could do the same to you since it's legal, you might as well screw his wife before he screws yours!

Legality makes it perfectly morally acceptable, yes?

 
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My mom needed the bathroom once. I knew it and got there first. "Oh hurry hurry" she said in her weak girly voice. No way, she should've planned ahead.

 
Personally I recommend having a "Catch and Release" clause regarding waivers saying that the waiver-hold period kicks in only if the player was on a roster over the course of a game.

So, for example, if you pick up player A, then that week, drop him for player B before the start of next week's games, that player is immediately available for pickup by all owners.

This eliminates the "add and drop just to screw other players" strategy, which is, imho, pretty unethical.

 
Coach3K said:
There's no rule against sleeping with your best friend's wife in many states.

So obviously it's something you should do, right? I mean...since HE could do the same to you since it's legal, you might as well screw his wife before he screws yours!

Legality makes it perfectly morally acceptable, yes?
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This is a completely inappropriate metaphor. Cutthroat Fantasy Football = Banging your friend's wife. :rolleyes:

 
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CalBear said:
It's a total Bush-league move.Add a transaction fee to stop this and various other kinds of transaction silliness.
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:rolleyes: We charge $1 for each acquisition (no freebies)... not sure it would be worth the extra dough for maybe a 10-pt advantage.Oh, and we've got specific rules in our book to prevent this.
 
Dexter Manley said:
I'll also address a couple other things that people posted:

- I'm not getting kicked out of the league regardless of what I do. There's 0% chance of that happening.

- I'm not losing a friend or friends over this. I'm always amazed at stories of people's friendships being ruined by fantasy football.

- This isn't a big $$ league. It's only $50. I try to increase it every year, but get shot down.

- I don't understand the 'lose respect' angle either. I've never cheated, and will never do so.
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If you're not cheating here, then you're at least blurring the line real good.
 
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