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Have you ridiculed "the other side"? (1 Viewer)

I have felt (and will continue to feel) comfortable calling out willfull ignorance/obtuseness and obfustication in all its forms.  I don't care within which "team" it happens to reside.  Have done it with both friends and family members. 

Ignorance, while exceptionally frustrating and unfortunate, is still usually worthy of an attempt at education (hopefully eliminating said ignorance with facts).  Willful ignorance, however, is absutely deserving of loud, constant, 39-feet-tall-neon-light-flashing level ridicule.

 
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IC FBGCav said:
How did we pay for the 1.8 trillion in tax cuts?  I will stop here so we can go statement by statement.
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The consumer makes up 2/3rds of GDP growth, by letting them keep more of their money they will in turn spend it and thus stimulate the economy which results in larger tax receipts.

 
Don't Noonan said:
The consumer makes up 2/3rds of GDP growth, by letting them keep more of their money they will in turn spend it and thus stimulate the economy which results in larger tax receipts.
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However, there are the basic economic concepts of marginal propensity to consume and save. The effect you are hoping to see, especially if the majority of the cuts are going to the wealthy, is likely not going to happen because the wealthy aren't going to spend their money. We wouldn't have this ballooning deficit if any of what you are saying actually worked.

 
Don't Noonan said:
Well sure, free health care, free education, free income sounds great but it is just completely unreasonable.  Let's get back to working hard for success, tje true capitalistic American way.  Everyone has there hand out nowadays.  Half the country doesn't pay federal income tax and guess who is asking for the rich to pay their fair share?  Give me a break, it is disgusting.
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The issue is that those rich people keep getting richer while it's not like those 50% don't work. They are working jobs that don't provide the access to the middle class that they once did. Pay has not kept up with the rising costs of health care. I think it is a matter of perspective. I can understand how it is seen as a handout but I also understand how we can also look it as a reinvestment in the country. When I look at the wealth of Amazon and Bezos and then see that someone working in their shipping centers makes $13 an hour working in often crap conditions, I find it less digusting that they would like to see Bezos pay more taxes so that they can get more affordable health care. 

 
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sn0mm1s said:
However, there are the basic economic concepts of marginal propensity to consume and save. The effect you are hoping to see, especially if the majority of the cuts are going to the wealthy, is likely not going to happen because the wealthy aren't going to spend their money. We wouldn't have this ballooning deficit if any of what you are saying actually worked.
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It's almost as if trickle down economics is a ruse.

 
sn0mm1s said:
However, there are the basic economic concepts of marginal propensity to consume and save. The effect you are hoping to see, especially if the majority of the cuts are going to the wealthy, is likely not going to happen because the wealthy aren't going to spend their money. We wouldn't have this ballooning deficit if any of what you are saying actually worked.
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Corporations and the wealthy have been hiring more people, did you see the jobs report last week?  Also, real wage growth has been increasing at a pace we haven't seen in many years.  It is a bit early to say the tax cuts are not working.

 
Don't Noonan said:
Corporations and the wealthy have been hiring more people, did you see the jobs report last week?  Also, real wage growth has been increasing at a pace we haven't seen in many years.  It is a bit early to say the tax cuts are not working.
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These talking points don't hold. Billions upon billions of dollars have been given to corporations and the wealthy - only a small fraction of that has turned into jobs/wage growth. You can find that information pretty easily with a couple of keystrokes. Also, the deficit has ballooned under a good economy thanks to the cuts. 

 
sn0mm1s said:
These talking points don't hold. Billions upon billions of dollars have been given to corporations and the wealthy - only a small fraction of that has turned into jobs/wage growth. You can find that information pretty easily with a couple of keystrokes. Also, the deficit has ballooned under a good economy thanks to the cuts. 
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agreed your talking points don't hold

 
Don't Noonan said:
Well sure, free health care, free education, free income sounds great but it is just completely unreasonable.  Let's get back to working hard for success, tje true capitalistic American way.  Everyone has there hand out nowadays.  Half the country doesn't pay federal income tax and guess who is asking for the rich to pay their fair share?  Give me a break, it is disgusting.
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I find perpetual wars disgusting

 
I have tried very hard not to and I don't think I have. The closest I got was during a recent political conversation with my father--in-law where I was asked why I was rubbing my temples so hard and not responding and I replied with, "because I am trying to think of a respectful way to say what I want to say." 

I live in an area that predominantly supports Trump.  I have to network with Trump supporters.  My wife's extended family - who I see often - all support Trump.  I have plenty of friends who support Trump.  I'd say my facebook newsfeed has more Trump supporters than not. Now, I have certainly challenged them, but it's been in a respectful, more Socratic way. 

So: 

1. It's not in my personal interest to ridicule Trump supporters. 

2. I don't think ridicule gets anybody anywhere so I don't do it. 

3. But man, it can be hard not to sometimes when I'm in disbelief of what a Trump supporter is saying or arguing. Trump really invokes an emotional response from me far more than any other president or political figure. 

 
Don't Noonan said:
agreed your talking points don't hold
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Link? Prove him wrong...with real numbers rather than proclaiming this.  I say that because I am certain he can back up his claim...and I am positive you have nothing to back up yours.

 
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Yes I have. I have used this site to blow off steam as the majority of my friends are Trump supporters. While I have criticized I would like to think I tried to keep it civil, tried to avoid name calling, and derogatory remarks but have failed on that front at times. That in my mind would be hypocritical as it is a big part of the reason I disapprove of Trump. To avoid conflict I have unfollowed friends who constantly post absurd Fox like Fake news stories and unfriended a few who chose to be too critical of my anti Trump stance.

 
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Don't Noonan said:
:lmao:  You just can't help yourself can you.   :lmao:
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It is funny how he asks for links for any statement a non-Trump-hater makes even if they are in response to wild-### non-supported (no links) claims from the left.  Even the most obvious statements like Dems don't support the views of rural white Americans needs links, as if the last dozen election results don't establish that. 

 
jon_mx said:
It is funny how he asks for links for any statement a non-Trump-hater makes even if they are in response to wild-### non-supported (no links) claims from the left.  Even the most obvious statements like Dems don't support the views of rural white Americans needs links, as if the last dozen election results don't establish that. 
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LOL I was just in another thread asking that same poster this morning to supply a link to back up one of his claims.   Crickets.  When others do that he calls them a troll for weeks.   

 
sho nuff said:
I clicked...no links.  Again and odd way to show you aren’t trolling.  Laughing smilies and not being able to back up unsubstantiated claims you are making. 
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Hey sho, you made unsubstantiated claim in the Trump tweets thread.  I asked you for a link.  I wouldn't want you to be falsely accused of trolling because you don't have a link to back up your claim.  Thanks in advance

 
My answer is yes. I try not to. It’s a bad thing and sometimes I’ve been guilty of it. It’s never right, never justified. 

 
No offense to the OP or anyone else in here but I get really ####### sick of this being a sides thing.  This isn’t a ####### game.  And I’m being genuine here - we should focus on issues and not sides.  

 
And to be honest - when it comes to issues I’ve definitely ridiculed people who disagree with my stance - and I shouldn’t.  

 
This whole idea of sides is partly to blame for the mess we are currently in - people like being on a side, they like winning, they dig their heels in, they overlook flaws, they don’t admit when they are wrong.  Jesus, it’s 7am and I need a drink.

 
AAABatteries said:
No offense to the OP or anyone else in here but I get really ####### sick of this being a sides thing.  This isn’t a ####### game.  And I’m being genuine here - we should focus on issues and not sides.  
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Well said. Problem is most of the issues aren't really defensible. So,  for those that feel they have to respond they are sort of stuck with the personal stuff

 
Yes, and I have a real problem with people who do not view this administration skeptically given the corruption, lies, immorality, rising debt, dismantling of administrative agencies, and the failure to advance any sort of legislative agenda.  I will continue to ridicule those who put forth blatant lies in support of their arguments.  I want to be on the right side of history when this all plays out. 

 
The Commish said:
Well said. Problem is most of the issues aren't really defensible. So,  for those that feel they have to respond they are sort of stuck with the personal stuff
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Not really true.  Most issues are framed in such a way to make them indefensible.   There are subsets of the each side which are quite defensible, it is the extreme positions which are ridiculous to defend.  Unfortunately there is a man in charge which takes extreme positions and puts forth dumb arguments.  

 
jon_mx said:
Not really true.  Most issues are framed in such a way to make them indefensible.   There are subsets of the each side which are quite defensible, it is the extreme positions which are ridiculous to defend.  Unfortunately there is a man in charge which takes extreme positions and puts forth dumb arguments.  
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I don't feel this is saying anything all that different than what I said originally except you used the word position and I used the word issue :shrug:  

Take the issue/position of separating children from parents while legally seeking asylum as an example.  You seem to be arguing just to argue.

 
The Commish said:
Well said. Problem is most of the issues aren't really defensible. So,  for those that feel they have to respond they are sort of stuck with the personal stuff
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If you are talking the Wall and DACA and transgenders in the military then I agree.  But when border security is the topic or tax cuts or X it just seems like the discussion devolves in to sides.  

One thing I’ve noticed is the whole D’s fall in love, R’s fall in line notion.  There definitely seems to be more infighting on the left side of the aisle than the right.  I think depending on your perspective that can be good or bad.  I think it’s the infighting is a good way to hash out ideas - I wish more people on both sides didn’t fall in line but try and look at each issue.  

 
AAABatteries said:
If you are talking the Wall and DACA and transgenders in the military then I agree.  But when border security is the topic or tax cuts or X it just seems like the discussion devolves in to sides.  

One thing I’ve noticed is the whole D’s fall in love, R’s fall in line notion.  There definitely seems to be more infighting on the left side of the aisle than the right.  I think depending on your perspective that can be good or bad.  I think it’s the infighting is a good way to hash out ideas - I wish more people on both sides didn’t fall in line but try and look at each issue.  
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I think you're making a grave error in your calculus here.  The "sides" have changed among the people and honestly, they've changed in DC too, it's just harder to see because there are only two parties and that's how they are labeled.  The sides were, prior to Trump conservative vs liberal and Republican vs Democrat were relatively synonymous to conservative vs liberal.  Now, it's trump supporter vs everyone else.  I made my comments in the light of those changes.  Actual issues/positions aren't discussed on their merits anymore because those issues/positions are so absurd there is really no legit defense.  You can't, with a straight face, argue that separating families coming here seeking asylum is a good thing.  You can't, with a straight face, argue that trickle down economics works.  You can't, with a straight face, argue that a wall is the most efficient and effective approach we have to border security.  You can't, with a straight face, argue that ridiculing your intelligence agencies and ignoring their findings because your gut is telling you something different is a good thing.  

We could go on for days with the list.  I've bagged on our politicians around here for years giving them as much #### as anyone, but even I recognize that this is different.  It is staggering at how wrong one person can be over and over and over.  Prior to this admin, the only other similar level of wrongness came from one of our own in LHUCKS.  Trump makes him look like a genius.  

 
AAABatteries said:
One thing I’ve noticed is the whole D’s fall in love, R’s fall in line notion.  There definitely seems to be more infighting on the left side of the aisle than the right.  I think depending on your perspective that can be good or bad.  I think it’s the infighting is a good way to hash out ideas - I wish more people on both sides didn’t fall in line but try and look at each issue.  
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I think the progressive side will always have more infighting. The regressive side just says "I want it to be like in the 50s". 1950s or 1350s doesn't really matter, just roll back the clock. People on the the progressive side have a collection of causes they care about most and some they don't very much at all. I don't particularly care about progressive social issues nearly as much as economic ones. Some I even disagree on or at least am agnostic. I think the infighting may be good, as long as at the end of the day progressives can agree to hold their nose and vote for the candidate anyway, which seems to be a problem since 2000. I think falling in line can be useful and I'm a proponent of it because incrementalism is a good way to arrive at policy goals. Not all policy goals have to be a significant and immediate change.

 
The Commish said:
I think you're making a grave error in your calculus here.  The "sides" have changed
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I never even said what I consider the sides.  I'm more discussing a human tendency more than politics.  The idea that my side is always right or I should always back them - but I do agree with you that the sides have changed.  Which makes comments like "that side has always been X" kind of pointless - a portion of Trump's base were people who probably never cared about the R's until Trump got the nomination. 

 
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AAABatteries said:
I never even said what I consider the sides.  I'm more discussing a human tendency more than politics.  The idea that my side is always right or I should always back them - but I do agree with you that the sides have changed.  Which makes comments like "that side has always been X" kind of pointless - a portion of Trump's base were people who probably never cared about the R's until Trump got the nomination. 
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Fair enough.  I was going by the examples you began with (tax cuts, DACA, the wall, etc).  I assumed incorrectly it seems.  These are most certainly trump supporter vs everyone else items and I thought you might be trying to fit them in the legacy conservative vs liberal mindset.  Apologies.

 
The Commish said:
Fair enough.  I was going by the examples you began with (tax cuts, DACA, the wall, etc).  I assumed incorrectly it seems.  These are most certainly trump supporter vs everyone else items and I thought you might be trying to fit them in the legacy conservative vs liberal mindset.  Apologies.
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No need to apologize - your comment was fair.  I feel there's a lot of legitimate issues about how politics are failing us that have taken a backseat because Trump and his administration have caused such chaos.

 
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