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2023-24 NBA (Playoffs!) Thread: Mavs - Boston it is (62 Viewers)

Frostillicus said:
Arguing MPJ is similar in ability and production to Murray is not a good argument. I never even noticed MPJ against the Wolves. You could have told me he didn't play in a full game and I probably would have believed you. I wanted Murray to die. I noticed him.
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I 100% would believe Murray didn't play in a game in the series because he should have been suspended for one game.
 
Frostillicus said:
Arguing MPJ is similar in ability and production to Murray is not a good argument. I never even noticed MPJ against the Wolves. You could have told me he didn't play in a full game and I probably would have believed you. I wanted Murray to die. I noticed him.
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Yeah, he seems to play his worst in the playoffs, which is sub optimal. And at least Murray has an explanation for his poor play in his calf injury. I don't know if it is MPJ's back injury history or just a natural inclination, but he doesn't like to bang bodies and for being 6' 10" he plays very weak on defense. If ever there was a series the Nuggets needed him to step up it was this one, as Jokic and Gordon desperately needed help in the paint for rebounds and defense. They paid MPJ hoping he would grow into that contract, and he hasn't yet.

Minnesota proved to be the better team with more depth. I am going to be interested in the Dallas series.
 
Frostillicus said:
Arguing MPJ is similar in ability and production to Murray is not a good argument. I never even noticed MPJ against the Wolves. You could have told me he didn't play in a full game and I probably would have believed you. I wanted Murray to die. I noticed him.
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You don’t think the fact that the Timberwolves having wonderful wing defenders has anything to do with Porter having a rough series? Anthony Edwards, McDaniels and Naw are all wonderful wing defenders. That’s why they beat Denver-defense. Sure Murray had moments—but all in all—he didn’t have a good series. Both he and Porter underperformed and a huge part of that is due to the Wolves. It’s not that either of them are crappy players. I clearly said in my argument that Murray is a better player than Porter—but the notion that Porter is the weak link on that Denver team is garbage. It was no different than blaming the Suns playoff failures on Ayton. They got rid of him—replaced him with Nurkic and Beal—and guess what—-they got swept in the first round. MPJ is a wonderful third or fourth option on a team. Look at what the dude had to deal with in regard to family issues this season. Bad performance in the series or not—the fact that the dude showed up and played is pretty admirable.
 
At what point has Michael Porter improved his game? He's basically the same player he's been since he entered the association.

It would be helpful if he developed a post game because right now he plays like a tall guard. One that can be defended by short guards. If a bigger player had to defend MPJ, that would make it easier for Jokic and Gordon to operate. Yes, MPJ can shoot over the top of most defenders, but he's largely a one-trick pony.

Also, Porter's defense is hit or miss (to be very, very kind). If he has to make more than one decision on that side of the court in a possession, it's safe to say a breakdown usually occurs.

Add in the huge contract, a poor back that could cause problems at any time, and questionable off-the-court behavior / decision making and the Nuggets would be wise to trade him for a reasonable return if they could. Teams like Minnesota and Boston are showing how important depth is in the playoffs - it may be time to diversify around Joker & Murray (& Gordon).
 
Porter had a bad series against Minnesota. He was a key reason they got out of the 1st round, shooting 48% from 3 on high volume. You'd like to see him more consistent in the playoffs. I think the TWolves made it more of a priority to control him than what he saw in the previous series and he didn't handle it. Maybe he learns from it.
 
Gr00vus said:
Porter had a bad series against Minnesota. He was a key reason they got out of the 1st round, shooting 48% from 3 on high volume. You'd like to see him more consistent in the playoffs. I think the TWolves made it more of a priority to control him than what he saw in the previous series and he didn't handle it. Maybe he learns from it.
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He was really bad last year in the finals against the Heats tryhards. He isn't good enough for what he is being paid.
 
msudaisy26 said:
Gr00vus said:
Porter had a bad series against Minnesota. He was a key reason they got out of the 1st round, shooting 48% from 3 on high volume. You'd like to see him more consistent in the playoffs. I think the TWolves made it more of a priority to control him than what he saw in the previous series and he didn't handle it. Maybe he learns from it.
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He was really bad last year in the finals against the Heats tryhards. He isn't good enough for what he is being paid.
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Sure, ideally you're not paying $36M for him. Now what?
 
MPJ is a lot like Aaron Gordon in Orlando. He needs a change of scenery. Will it work as well as it did for Gordon and the Nuggets? I have my doubts, but if the cost was something like Isaiah Stewart and Fontecchio for MPJ, I think that could work for both teams.
 
Instinctive said:
Frostillicus said:
Minnesota vs Dallas game 1 I am really interested in seeing what happens iwth Gafford and Lively. The Wolves made it clear they don't mind ignoring someone on the perimeter (Gordon) and now Dallas brings in two non shooters, letting Rudy basically just camp inside. I know Luka and Kyrie are tremendous outside shooters and I'll be watching to see what happens becaause I know Ant/Jadn/NAW have given them some fits in the past, and if Rudy can jamp up the paint who knows.
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I'm finding it hard to come up with a good perspective so far.

All 4 regular season games were before deadline. Only one game had Kyrie. Luka missed two of the four games. The highest played minutes for Dallas in those four games was Tim Hardaway Jr. Dwight Powell was top 5 in minutes against Minnesota.

So now how do Washington and Gafford change it up?

Sucks no Maxi, for the Gobert reason you mention, would be nice.

Minnesota's number one regular season defense...post deadline behind the Mavs #1 defense over the last ~30 games I heard on Lowe. So you'd think rhythm of the games will be very different than Denver or Phoenix who are mediocre on D.
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I wonder if we'll see Dallas try to go small and go with the, untrue, narrative that Gobert can't play against small lineups in teh playoffs like Phoenix tried. Luka, Kyrie, DJJ, Hardaway, and PJ or something. Although I don't see how that group could stop the Wolves from scoring.
 
Frostillicus said:
Sabonis and Fox each with one vote for first team, and a combined 3 votes for second team. LOL, Kings writer guy.
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Fox is a good defender but not on that level. Rebounding is a defensive skill, i guess that would have to be the homer-based justification for Sabonis.

Looking at last year’s voters, there aren’t any Kings media people on there so I’m at a loss as to who that voter is. There are a lot of underqualified bloggers though so there are a lot of candidates for said awful voter. Edit: that’s not fair to bloggers, Dave McMenamin is on the list and isn’t a blogger, so bad voters can come from anywhere.
 
It's not just Fox and Sabonis though, there are several other laughable votes. Bobby Portis, Brandon Podziemski, Myles Turner, and a few others
 
jvdesigns2002 said:
scoobus said:
jvdesigns2002 said:
scoobus said:
jvdesigns2002 said:
Wow. A lot of Michael Porter Jr. hate in here. Dude averaged like 17pts-7rebounds a game this season on nearly 48.5% from the field and 40% from the 3 point line. He’s one of the better defenders on the Nuggets and it’s not like he had a horrid playoff run. I think he averaged 1 fewer point per game and had effectively the same efficiency. Being that like 3 of his brothers were dealing with some serious and nasty issues around playoff time—just seems like people are just looking for somebody to blame for the Nuggets losing. The Nuggets lost to a really great and well balanced team. Sure Porter Jr didn’t play great in the elimination game, but if the guy can stay healthy—he’s absolutely an asset. A wing player that can shoot, defend, has height and length, can rebound well—and that is still pretty young—and we’re somehow trashing the guy. Seems odd. The Nuggets are a good team that just lost some depth pieces. They could use a back up big. They basically had a 7 man playoff rotation and their main guys played a lot last season—and they played a lot down the stretch this season. They need minor tweaks- not an overhaul
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He was absolutely not good on defense in the TWolves series. And he's getting hate because he just had a really awful series, as a guy making a ton of money, in a series they lost. This on the heels of a dreadful finals last year as well.
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He was not the reason they lost that series. Jamal Murray also had an awful series. The dude averaged 18pts 4 assists and nearly 3 turnovers a game. He shot just 40% from the field and only 33% from the 3point line—and he’s supposed to be the main producer of offense outside of Jokic. The dude lost his composure so much that he threw stuff at refs and on the court and frankly should have been suspended. MPJ is effectively a fourth option on the Nuggets after Jokic, Murray, and Gordon. Minnesota is a fantastic defensive team that is better than the Nuggets this year. It’s funny how when Denver loses—it’s just about searching for the Nugget player that is the reason behind the loss—as opposed to actually giving credit to the opposing team for being better. Denver was fortunate to get past the Lakers as they outplayed the Nuggets for nearly 75% of the series. Denver should have went down 0-3 in this series as Jamal deserved a suspension and the league didn’t give him one because the league was concerned about ratings (per an anonymous NBA executive). The reality of the situation is that the Nuggets were fortunate to get by the Lakers the way they did, and the only reason this series went seven is because Adam Silver gifted them an opportunity to get back in the series by not suspending Jamal. The Nuggets didn’t lose because of MPJ—they lost because the Wolves were better and they beat them. Calling a really great player trash because he had a bad couple of series is nonsense.
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Bunch of odd takes in here. Nobody's calling him a trash player, nobody isn't giving Minnesota credit, so you can stop with the strawman. Bringing up the Lakers series and potential suspension also has really nothing to do with this.

MPJ is making the same money as Murray, and considerably more than Gordon. He's absolutely not the 4th option behind Gordon, at least not when he's playing like what he should be. Murray had a rough series as well, but there's soooooooooooo much more on his plate in terms of scoring and creation, in no small part because MPJ played like such ***. Game 7 is an absolute blowout if not for Murray.

From MPJ himself
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Look above. People are saying that if MPJ got traded to their team that they would stop supporting their team. MPJ and Jamal Murray have very similar career stats. Murray is averaging 17.5 pts per game and Porter is just under 16pts per game on their careers. Murray gets approximately 3 more assists per game over his career than Porter, and Porter gets nearly 3 more rebounds per game than Murray. Murray has shot 45% from the field and 38% from 3pt line over his career and MPJ has shot nearly 50% from the field and nearly 41% from the 3 point line for his career. The reason they make similar money is because they produce similarly.

Frankly, I would argue that Murrays creating ability as a PG are pretty lacking. A starting PG playing with Jokic should easily be averaging more than 4-5 assists per game imo. He’s a scoring point guard that doesn’t create much for his teammates other than a two man game with Jokic. A scoring first point guard is not rarer than a 6 foot 10 young wing that has incredible range on his shot, is a very efficient shooter, is a solid defender, and is athletic. Am I saying that Porter is a better player than Murray—no. I’m saying that young wing players that can shoot the ball efficiently from range and that are solid defenders are a very valuable commodity in the league. If the Nuggets get rid of MPJ, unless they replace him with a wing superstar (maybe a Paul George type)—more likely than not—they will be downgrading at that position imo.
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My thoughts on all of this...
  • Most importantly, I think MPJ is a better player than most people are saying in here. He had a bad series, but like the finals last year, if the Nuggets win, everybody forgets about it.
  • MPJ is overpaid but he is overpaid with a premium elite skill - there are few players that can shoot like he can, and fewer at his height.
  • Regarding his defense:
    • I think he may have been hurt the last month of the season and in the playoffs because he was bad in both series, and was legitimately between decent and good over the course of the previous two seasons in his role.
    • He doesn't move laterally all that well for a small forward and he can't really get down in a defensive stance because of his back, but over the last two seasons (this playoffs excluded), he has figured out just how far he can back off of a player and still affect their shot.
    • He is also very good at defending from behind - he's a very legitimate 6'10" and 220 lbs with reasonably long arms and good timing so players get spooked.
    • He is a plus rebounder at either forward spot, which helps the Nuggets defensively.
    • If he's your 5th best defender, you are in a good place, if he is your 3rd best defender, you are going to get smoked.
  • Offensively:
    • We saw what somebody with a very similar skill set in Buddy Hield had happen when he got traded and the Sixers never ran plays for him. I think that is what happened to him in the Wolves series, and part of the reason I think Malone holds a fair amount of blame for the loss. Some of it was because the Nuggets weren't getting into the teeth of the defense often, some of it was MPJ and his teammates loosing trust in his shot, and some of it was the fact that they basically just let him be a weakside shooter without as much movement as usual.
    • This season he started really attacking strong off the closeout. Teams have to close out hard because he's so tall with a high release point because he's an honest to goodness jump shooter as opposed to most tall jump shooters that shoot more of a set shot (i.e. KAT), so he really worked on getting a quick first step around that closeout. From there he can either pull up from 2 (where he was far and away the best long 2 point shooter in the NBA this year) or get all the way to the basket.
    • He has a high, loose handle, and makes bad decisions when he is on the move. Most of the time when he gets the ball, he is either shooting, attacking a closeout, or passing the ball quickly (where he does make mostly good decisions) - when it isn't one of those three things, he has problems.
    • He is 100% the Nuggets third best offensive player and puts much more stress on a defense than anybody else on the roster other than Murray and Jokic.
Regarding Murray v Porter, anybody arguing that MPJ is anywhere close to as impactful or as important as Murray offensively doesn't watch much of the Nuggets. Murray had a really rough playoffs but he was playing with a similar injury that kept Giannis out and has kept Porzingis out to this point. He was out for 7 games or something in March (roughly two weeks) but they brough him back slowly the last 5 games of the season to get him back into playing shape... that never really happened because it never fully healed. Also, Murray averaged 6.5 apg this season - good for #15 in the NBA, next to some other obviously replaceable shoot first PGs like Dame Lillard (7.0), Jalen Brunson (6.7), SGA (6.2), Kyrie Irving (5.2), Steph Curry (5.1)... Murray was ahead of all of those guys in terms of assists per 36 minutes or per 100 possessions.
 
Boston said:
the moops said:
It's not just Fox and Sabonis though, there are several other laughable votes. Bobby Portis, Brandon Podziemski, Myles Turner, and a few others
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For awards in any league the voter should be required to explain his vote.
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Favorite recollection is when Tim Duncan made the All-NBA first team his rookie year and finished a few votes shy of Jordan for NBA MVP but was not unanimous rookie of the year because some guy voted for Keith Van Horn.
 
Still not worried at all about the series, but just your typical Celtics playing down to their opponent again. Another day at the office for them.

Hope they realize this is the last series they're going to be able to get away with that.
 
ShamrockPride said:
Still not worried at all about the series, but just your typical Celtics playing down to their opponent again. Another day at the office for them.

Hope they realize this is the last series they're going to be able to get away with that.
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The team they are playing is in thr conference finals.
 
Look at that. Pacers stop making every freaking shot and the Celtics start to pull away.

That first half shooting by Indy was unsustainable.
 
ShamrockPride said:
msudaisy26 said:
ShamrockPride said:
Still not worried at all about the series, but just your typical Celtics playing down to their opponent again. Another day at the office for them.

Hope they realize this is the last series they're going to be able to get away with that.
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The team they are playing is in thr conference finals.
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Who's picking that team to win?
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No one picked the Twolves at the start if their series either.
 
Celtics sleepwalking again. Missing open and easy shots then lazy on defense.

Epitomized by Jaylen's bad turnover at the top of the key and then not hustling and giving up the dunk.
 
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