Montee Ball (1 Viewer)

[Adam Harstad]

A couple points here.. Firstly, I'm not sure why you bring up rookie injured Foster vs. freshly signed Stephen Davis in his prime. That's not what people are talking about when they bring up Foster. They're talking about Foster 2 years removed from his injury sitting behind a completely ineffective over-the-hill 32 year old Stephen Davis who was coming off his own major injury and averaging 3.1ypc. Fox's reliance on veteran running backs is not relegated to just keeping rookies on the bench, and that's kind of the point. Even several years into his career Foster was still held back in favor of a clearly ineffective Davis. At that point, I think even Stephen Davis' mother had to be wondering why he was getting the starts. This is just memory bias here. As frustrated as you've been watching Stewart get a small piece of the pie the last few years, it was even more frustrating watching Foster do the same because unlike the current situation, he was clearly the better option that year. Secondly, here you explicitly reference several times that these vets got/held onto the job because they were "hand picked" by Fox and the coaching staff. In another thread, you explicitly state that the personnel was not necessarily hand picked by Fox so much as the GM. It just seems like you're pretty heavily bending your point to suit your argument here. When it favors the argument you're making, it's clear-cut that Fox is the guy bringing these players in and has huge weight in the personnel decisions. Meanwhile when it doesn't favor the argument you're making, Fox likely has little input on personnel decisions and the GM is the one making all the moves while Fox just rolls with the cards he's dealt.

I brought up Foster vs. a freshly signed Davis because the basic formulation I see is "Fox doesn't play rookies", and that was Foster's de facto rookie year. If I'm tilting at a straw man, I apologize, but my general impression is that the criticism is that Fox going with the vet is an every year occurrence rather than a thing that just happened in 1-1.5 seasons a half decade ago. As for the hand picked argument... as I said in the other thread, the GM is ultimately responsible for constructing the roster. The coach could ask him to spend all seven draft picks on punters, but it's the GM's job to build the best roster possible. It's not John Fox's job to manage the cap or maximize draft picks, so I don't think you can blame him for Carolina spending huge capital on both Stewart and Williams. At the same time, in non-dysfunctional organizations, the GM is going to be getting the head coach players he wants, who fit in his system. I doubt Hurney would have gotten Fox backs he didn't like or didn't want. Look at Carroll and Schneider in Seattle. Carroll likes big DBs, so Schneider gets him Richard Sherman and Brandon Browner. Those are definitely Carroll's kind of DBs, but ultimately, if those guys had been terrible, we wouldn't be saying that Carroll is a terrible drafter- John Schneider was the guy who decided that the best use of resources was acquiring those guys. Hand-picked is probably overselling the case, but I don't think there's anything logically inconsistent between saying "these guys are John Fox RBs" and "John Fox is not the guy in charge of drafting the RBs". I think in the best teams, there's a natural slightly adversarial relationship between the coach and the GM- it's the coach's job to ask for the moon, and the GM's job to rein him in and give him what you can within the team's budget.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I brought up Foster vs. a freshly signed Davis because the basic formulation I see is "Fox doesn't play rookies", and that was Foster's de facto rookie year. If I'm tilting at a straw man, I apologize, but my general impression is that the criticism is that Fox going with the vet is an every year occurrence rather than a thing that just happened in 1-1.5 seasons a half decade ago.

I don't think anyone is claiming it's just rookies, or at least they shouldn't be. This all started with Fox because it took five years for him to even semi-commit to Foster even though Stephen Davis was clearly over the hill by year three of that. It wasn't because Foster sat out his rookie year injured, nor because DeAngelo sat for one season, nor because Stewart sat for one season. I doubt we'd be hearing nearly as much about it if all those guys had started in year two. People expect that they may have to wait a year for a rookie RB. They don't expect that they might have to wait five.

What's worse is that of those running backs, Montee Ball is the one that they invested the least in. When the guy isn't willing to commit to a young first round RB that is clearly one of the best talents in the league, why is he more likely to commit to a late 2nd rounder that no one really believes is any kind of special talent? Because Mcgahee is old and Moreno isn't that good? There's almost no feasible way for either of them to be worse than Davis was in 2005.

As for the hand picked argument... as I said in the other thread, the GM is ultimately responsible for constructing the roster. The coach could ask him to spend all seven draft picks on punters, but it's the GM's job to build the best roster possible. It's not John Fox's job to manage the cap or maximize draft picks, so I don't think you can blame him for Carolina spending huge capital on both Stewart and Williams. At the same time, in non-dysfunctional organizations, the GM is going to be getting the head coach players he wants, who fit in his system. I doubt Hurney would have gotten Fox backs he didn't like or didn't want. Look at Carroll and Schneider in Seattle. Carroll likes big DBs, so Schneider gets him Richard Sherman and Brandon Browner. Those are definitely Carroll's kind of DBs, but ultimately, if those guys had been terrible, we wouldn't be saying that Carroll is a terrible drafter- John Schneider was the guy who decided that the best use of resources was acquiring those guys.

Hand-picked is probably overselling the case, but I don't think there's anything logically inconsistent between saying "these guys are John Fox RBs" and "John Fox is not the guy in charge of drafting the RBs". I think in the best teams, there's a natural slightly adversarial relationship between the coach and the GM- it's the coach's job to ask for the moon, and the GM's job to rein him in and give him what you can within the team's budget.

Either way, it's still using opposing extremes of the same argument to argue two opposite viewpoints.

When talking about incumbents that held the job, if they were brought in when Fox was there then they were hand-picked guys that he selected and was less likely to replace because of that.

When talking about young guys that didn't get the job, if they were brought in when Fox was there than it was really the GMs doing and they weren't at any advantage for being brought in under Fox.

 

[Shutout]

You can stop at the part that says Moreno is a good blocker and quality receiver because that is all that's important. This is Peyton manning. That means this is a throwing team, first, foremost, and all rest stops in between. The broncos aren't looking for a pile mover because they don't move piles. They are looking for a security guard with good hands because they pass the ball.

Think of it this way: Do you think it's more likely John Elway sits in a room thinking somewhere and says "Le'ts make danged sure we get a guy that runs 4.6 ypc so that we have a good ypc on that 29% of the time we actually run those plays" or "Let's trade .8 YPC so that our $20 M QB, whom runs the show and is the alpha and omega of all our chances to win a Super Bowl has a protector and another weapon"?

If John Elway thought that was all that matters, I doubt he would have been drafting an RB in the 2nd round. If anyone thought that Moreno was the answer, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have deactivated him for half of last season, they would not have been kicking the tires on every free agent RB in the league, and they definitely would not have expended so much draft capital trying to replace him. I don't need to speculate what John Elway is thinking when his actions are telling me all I need to know.

Teams will always draft players at all positions and not utilize them. The Niners drafted a WR last year and didn't use them. Drafted RBs the last three years and have barely used them. Drafted a LB this year and won't use them. The jets traded for a QB and didn't use them. The list goes on and on and on.

But the Reality is, John Elway's actions are nothing more than what every team does. And the TRUE reality is what Peyton Manning does on the field and that action is the only one that matters. Look at the history of Peyton Manning. Can you, with a straight face, honestly try to defend or make a case for the Broncos actually using a RB like Ball in a significant manner while Peyton is there? No. He is the show. Their heaviest investment was Welker. Their biggest need is to keep Manning upright in the passing game. There is no way...NO way, that Ball is going to be the feature of this team and for him to commit in the best way he can, they would have to run. And the Broncos are not going to do that.

I think people are SERIOUSLY reaching if they are trying to connect the dots and make a case of "Well Ball was taken in the 2nd round, therefore he is going to be a prime contributor on this team". It is not going to happen as long as Peyton is healthy. The best return you can get on this team at that position is the RB that is going to be in on those passing plays and getting the benefit of the passing game. To me, that is not Ball as a rookie when Moreno and McGahee (if he stays) have both shown they are veterans that can do that.

I don't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill on this and beat it to death but, to me, it seems pretty cut and dry when it comes to Manning and it seems pretty cut and dry when it comes to the Broncos RBs...not worth trying to figure it out in May because it is seldom as it seems. Even with a person on location and watching practice every year, we get all these sideline reports on who is getting the reps and who looks good and who doesn't and you can just about bank on it; take those reports and flip them upside down after about 5 weeks because it all changes.

 

[SWC]

noshawn moreno is a joke and montee ball is going to shock the world with a good rookie year this year and can you imagine one of the best td scorers ever in college paired up with one of the best nfl qbs ever on the field all i can say is like my main man iceman said you can be my wingman anytime to that brohans

 

[TheFanatic]

noshawn moreno is a joke and montee ball is going to shock the world with a good rookie year this year and can you imagine one of the best td scorers ever in college paired up with one of the best nfl qbs ever on the field all i can say is like my main man iceman said you can be my wingman anytime to that brohans

 

[SWC]

ll rememberwi

noshawn moreno is a joke and montee ball is going to shock the world with a good rookie year this year and can you imagine one of the best td scorers ever in college paired up with one of the best nfl qbs ever on the field all i can say is like my main man iceman said you can be my wingman anytime to that brohans

i will remember this brohan when the season gets going and montee is kicking butt and having a good solid not spectacular i am not getting carried away rookie season and we will see who has the last laugh then brohans and i hope that it is me but if it is you i will say i salute you sir and good day take that to the bank brohan

 

[TheFanatic]

ll rememberwi

noshawn moreno is a joke and montee ball is going to shock the world with a good rookie year this year and can you imagine one of the best td scorers ever in college paired up with one of the best nfl qbs ever on the field all i can say is like my main man iceman said you can be my wingman anytime to that brohans

i will remember this brohan when the season gets going and montee is kicking butt and having a good solid not spectacular i am not getting carried away rookie season and we will see who has the last laugh then brohans and i hope that it is me but if it is you i will say i salute you sir and good day take that to the bank brohan

Uh, right back at you. I think

 

[Mile High]

Q:You wrote the Broncos were "routinely disappointing in the running game in 2012." It seems to me that Knowshon Moreno had several good games, both as a runner and blocker for (Peyton) Manning. What have I missed with regard to the Broncos placing this kind of priority on drafting a runner? Further, I haven't seen too many glowing reviews of the (Montee) Ball pick in the initial assessment of the draft by national press outlets.

A:Lee, the Broncos are not going to be a run-first team with Peyton Manning at quarterback.
But they can be a far more efficient running team and will have to be if they want to improve on last year's finish. Even in these pass-first times, with inflated numbers for all involved throwing the ball, there is still a place for a team to run the ball when it wants to.
Especially with so many defenses deploying lighter formations, with five, six and sometimes even seven, defensive backs on the field, even in the scoring zone. That gives the team that can run the ball the ability to keep drives going and score touchdowns with some well-placed play calls.
It's no accident the New England Patriots were fourth in the league in pass attempts last season — 641, or 53 more than the Broncos — and yet also led the league in rushing touchdowns with 25.
Bill Belichick has long been considered one of the league's best defensive minds, and his approach on offense as a head coach has always been to routinely do what gives defenses problems. And that's whether it's more four- and five-wide receiver sets, more no-huddle or more two-tight end formations.
Last year, the Patriots, like most high-end passing attacks, found themselvesfacing smaller defensive formations. So, when they wanted to run they did it with a big back — 220-pound Stevan Ridley — and did it plenty in the scoring zone, enough to be the league leader in rushing touchdowns.

The 49ers and Ravens — the two Super Bowl teams — were tied for sixth in the league in rushing touchdowns last season, each with 17.
The Broncos, often facing the same kind of lighter defensive formations with Manning behind center and essentially using a three-wide look as their base offense, never consistently ran the ball in important third-down situations or in the scoring zone. They were tied for 13th in the league in rushing touchdowns last season with 12.
And it isn't a new issue. Even in 2011, when they led the league in rushing, they were tied for 19th in the league in rushing touchdowns with just 11.
And in the playoff loss to the Ravens, the Broncos were forced to give the ball back to the Ravens in regulation in the first place because the Broncos were incapable of running the ball when they needed/wanted to.
Everyone talks about the third-and-7 call when they ran Ronnie Hillman rather than let Manning, who was obviously affected by the cold in terms of his ability to grip the ball by that point in the game, try to make a play.
But had they been able to run the ball to simply close out a game on first and second down, the Ravens don't get the ball back, there is no 70-yard touchdown pass, and the Broncos would have played in the AFC championship game at home.
But with a pile of injuries at running back, they had Hillman, who had dropped below 180 pounds by the end of his rookie season, as the primary back. And they couldn't clear enough room up front with the game on the line to get Hillman free.
With a seven-point lead and trying to use up the final minutes on the clock, Hillman went for a two-yard gain and one-yard gain on the first two carries of the fateful possession before the now infamous third-and-7 call. But even earlier in the game, the Broncos had failed to convert a third-and-1 and a third-and-2 with running plays.
The Ravens scored a touchdown on their possession following the failed third-and-1.
It's why the Broncos signed guard Louis Vasquez to the longest deal they've handed out in free agency, selected Ball in the second round of draft and why they are working with Hillman to keep his weight up this time around so he can be the impact change-of-pace back they want him to be.
Or as John Fox put it this past weekend:
"Well, I think, really overall the area offensively we need to improve in the most is the run game."

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_23149466/does-broncos-pass-first-offense-need-improvement-running

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

QuoteHillman, who had dropped below 180 pounds by the end of his rookie season

Whoa. If that's right feel free stick the fork in.

 

[TxBuckeye]

Not a huge Ball fan. He reminds me a lot of Ron Dayne coming out. Lots of hype, big numbers, but never did much in the NFL. They strike me as similar players. For those that have seen Ball a lot, am I way off base here?

 

[jonboltz]

Not a huge Ball fan. He reminds me a lot of Ron Dayne coming out. Lots of hype, big numbers, but never did much in the NFL. They strike me as similar players. For those that have seen Ball a lot, am I way off base here?

Montee is about 25-30 lb lighter than Dayne.

 

[jtd13]

Not a huge Ball fan. He reminds me a lot of Ron Dayne coming out. Lots of hype, big numbers, but never did much in the NFL. They strike me as similar players. For those that have seen Ball a lot, am I way off base here?

From a Michigan State fan who's seen entirely too much of both Ball and Dayne in college: I would say that you are way off base. Dayne basically got his massive body going fast behind a great OL, and was a load to bring down once up to speed. Ball has shown much better vision and cutting ability than Dayne ever did. I'm not sure how Ball will translate (mainly because Fox does worry me), but He' no more similar to Dayne than he is to Shady McCoy (ignoring where he went to college).

 

[Adam Harstad]

I brought up Foster vs. a freshly signed Davis because the basic formulation I see is "Fox doesn't play rookies", and that was Foster's de facto rookie year. If I'm tilting at a straw man, I apologize, but my general impression is that the criticism is that Fox going with the vet is an every year occurrence rather than a thing that just happened in 1-1.5 seasons a half decade ago.

I don't think anyone is claiming it's just rookies, or at least they shouldn't be. This all started with Fox because it took five years for him to even semi-commit to Foster even though Stephen Davis was clearly over the hill by year three of that. It wasn't because Foster sat out his rookie year injured, nor because DeAngelo sat for one season, nor because Stewart sat for one season. I doubt we'd be hearing nearly as much about it if all those guys had started in year two. People expect that they may have to wait a year for a rookie RB. They don't expect that they might have to wait five.

What's worse is that of those running backs, Montee Ball is the one that they invested the least in. When the guy isn't willing to commit to a young first round RB that is clearly one of the best talents in the league, why is he more likely to commit to a late 2nd rounder that no one really believes is any kind of special talent? Because Mcgahee is old and Moreno isn't that good? There's almost no feasible way for either of them to be worse than Davis was in 2005.

As for the hand picked argument... as I said in the other thread, the GM is ultimately responsible for constructing the roster. The coach could ask him to spend all seven draft picks on punters, but it's the GM's job to build the best roster possible. It's not John Fox's job to manage the cap or maximize draft picks, so I don't think you can blame him for Carolina spending huge capital on both Stewart and Williams. At the same time, in non-dysfunctional organizations, the GM is going to be getting the head coach players he wants, who fit in his system. I doubt Hurney would have gotten Fox backs he didn't like or didn't want. Look at Carroll and Schneider in Seattle. Carroll likes big DBs, so Schneider gets him Richard Sherman and Brandon Browner. Those are definitely Carroll's kind of DBs, but ultimately, if those guys had been terrible, we wouldn't be saying that Carroll is a terrible drafter- John Schneider was the guy who decided that the best use of resources was acquiring those guys.

Hand-picked is probably overselling the case, but I don't think there's anything logically inconsistent between saying "these guys are John Fox RBs" and "John Fox is not the guy in charge of drafting the RBs". I think in the best teams, there's a natural slightly adversarial relationship between the coach and the GM- it's the coach's job to ask for the moon, and the GM's job to rein him in and give him what you can within the team's budget.

Either way, it's still using opposing extremes of the same argument to argue two opposite viewpoints.

When talking about incumbents that held the job, if they were brought in when Fox was there then they were hand-picked guys that he selected and was less likely to replace because of that.

When talking about young guys that didn't get the job, if they were brought in when Fox was there than it was really the GMs doing and they weren't at any advantage for being brought in under Fox.

Alright, this was a serious communication fail on my part, because we're arguing different things. It certainly doesn't help that our conversation is spanning a dozen posts across 2-3 different threads.

As I understand it, you feel like I'm using the "hand-picked" argument to have my cake and eat it to. If an RB wins the competition, he was "hand picked". If an RB loses the competition, eh, the GM was responsible for getting him. That would certainly be a pretty big foul, but that's not what I'm trying to say- that's strands from several different arguments that are getting tangled together. I mostly brought up the GM in response to the question of whether Fox has ever *DRAFTED* an RB who was good for several years, as I feel like "drafted" questions his ability to identify talent, and he's not really in charge of identifying talent. Yes, we're getting a lot into semantics at that point and it doesn't really add a lot to the discussion, but you know I have a bad habit of meandering around sometimes.

As for the "hand-picked" argument, that argument isn't comparing someone like Foster to someone like Davis (both of whom were acquired under Fox and are therefore probably the type of RBs he wanted), it's comparing someone like Montee Ball to someone like Knowshon Moreno, who he inherited and for whom he has never shown any sort of preference. In a battle of Foster vs. Davis, you have two guys that Fox likes and feels loyalty to. In a battle of Ball vs. Moreno you have a back Fox likes and feels loyalty to vs. a back Fox (and Elway) has marginalized for his entire tenure with the team. In 2011, they acquired McGahee and gave Moreno about 5 carries per game before Moreno got injured. In 2012, they acquired Hillman, and had McGahee not gotten injured, Moreno likely would have finished the season with 8 carries. Eight.

You can stop at the part that says Moreno is a good blocker and quality receiver because that is all that's important. This is Peyton manning. That means this is a throwing team, first, foremost, and all rest stops in between. The broncos aren't looking for a pile mover because they don't move piles. They are looking for a security guard with good hands because they pass the ball.

Think of it this way: Do you think it's more likely John Elway sits in a room thinking somewhere and says "Le'ts make danged sure we get a guy that runs 4.6 ypc so that we have a good ypc on that 29% of the time we actually run those plays" or "Let's trade .8 YPC so that our $20 M QB, whom runs the show and is the alpha and omega of all our chances to win a Super Bowl has a protector and another weapon"?

If John Elway thought that was all that matters, I doubt he would have been drafting an RB in the 2nd round. If anyone thought that Moreno was the answer, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have deactivated him for half of last season, they would not have been kicking the tires on every free agent RB in the league, and they definitely would not have expended so much draft capital trying to replace him. I don't need to speculate what John Elway is thinking when his actions are telling me all I need to know.

Teams will always draft players at all positions and not utilize them. The Niners drafted a WR last year and didn't use them. Drafted RBs the last three years and have barely used them. Drafted a LB this year and won't use them. The jets traded for a QB and didn't use them. The list goes on and on and on.

But the Reality is, John Elway's actions are nothing more than what every team does. And the TRUE reality is what Peyton Manning does on the field and that action is the only one that matters. Look at the history of Peyton Manning. Can you, with a straight face, honestly try to defend or make a case for the Broncos actually using a RB like Ball in a significant manner while Peyton is there? No. He is the show. Their heaviest investment was Welker. Their biggest need is to keep Manning upright in the passing game. There is no way...NO way, that Ball is going to be the feature of this team and for him to commit in the best way he can, they would have to run. And the Broncos are not going to do that.

I think people are SERIOUSLY reaching if they are trying to connect the dots and make a case of "Well Ball was taken in the 2nd round, therefore he is going to be a prime contributor on this team". It is not going to happen as long as Peyton is healthy. The best return you can get on this team at that position is the RB that is going to be in on those passing plays and getting the benefit of the passing game. To me, that is not Ball as a rookie when Moreno and McGahee (if he stays) have both shown they are veterans that can do that.

I don't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill on this and beat it to death but, to me, it seems pretty cut and dry when it comes to Manning and it seems pretty cut and dry when it comes to the Broncos RBs...not worth trying to figure it out in May because it is seldom as it seems. Even with a person on location and watching practice every year, we get all these sideline reports on who is getting the reps and who looks good and who doesn't and you can just about bank on it; take those reports and flip them upside down after about 5 weeks because it all changes.

Yes, teams will draft a player and not utilize them, but that's seldom the plan. Very few teams will say "man, we got the #1 seed last year and our HoF QB's window is closing, so let's try to draft some people who won't contribute this year".

As for the true reality... the true reality is that Knowshon Moreno only got used last year because Denver had no other options. Prior to week 11 last year, he had 45 carries since John Fox joined the team. He had failed to make the active roster for 8 straight weeks, and probably would have made it 6 more games had McGahee not gotten injured. Denver's brass doesn't like Knowshon Moreno. He's not their go-to, he's their last resort. As for McGahee, as I've said, the details of his contract and his age mean there's a good chance he doesn't even make the team this year. If he doesn't, and the RB corps is Montee Ball, Lance Ball, Knowshon Moreno, and Ronnie Hillman, you really think there's no chance that Montee is the guy to own?

I'm not saying that Denver's going to be a power running team. Obviously they aren't. I'm saying that Denver is not going to throw the ball 100% of the time, even with Peyton Manning. They're still going to run the ball, and Montee Ball could be the guy they use to run it. Even if he's nothing more than a 2-down RB, that could still mean 200-250 carries and all the goal line work, which for an offense like Denver's could mean a lot more points than people seem to be expecting from him. If McGahee makes the team, then I wouldn't expect much from Ball at all... but if McGahee gets cut as I think he might, then I think there's a pretty solid chance that Montee Ball will be a starting RB in fantasy this year.

 

[miqws]

Peyton Manning prefers to run the no huddle offense, no subs. Ball needs to be able to pass protect to be fantasy relevant.

 

[Touchdown There]

Just hit me looking at Ball again who he reminded me of... think Chester Taylor is a pretty good fit. He'll produce decent numbers on volume, but won't ever wow you and will always be at risk of being replaced.His more immediate problem may be that might not be as good as McGahee at being a big back or as good as Moreno and Hillman at being a small back. Could see him mostly sitting for a year if everyone else is healthy.

I agree with this. My gut thinks they will cut McGahee and ride Moreno in 2013. No matter how well Moreno plays he will not be extended.Ball only gets a shot when vets fall.

 

[Coeur de Lion]

Peyton Manning prefers to run the no huddle offense, no subs. Ball needs to be able to pass protect to be fantasy relevant.

This.A Manning offense isn't a typical situation where the rookie RB can come in to run and leave the field on passing plays. He's calling / changing a huge percentage of the plays at the LOS, and expecting a rookie to be able to keep up with that seems like a lot to ask. Ball might well be the most dynamic player with the football in his hands, but his playing time will most likely hinge upon how quickly he can absorb the complex protection and audible schemes. Joseph Addai started was Manning's RB for years based solely on his ability to pass protect and be on the same page with Manning -- Addai wasn't even close to average with the ball in his hands, particularly toward the end of his run in Indy. It didn't matter, because "dynamic playmaker" was waaaaay behind "reliable and smart" on the RB priority list...

 

[tdmills]

The things that's so tough with evaluating Montee Ball is that he's smooth. It doesn't look like he ever is trying really hard and he glides when he runs, so he never really looks explosive. Sometimes it makes players underrated by being smooth.

 

[TheFanatic]

The things that's so tough with evaluating Montee Ball is that he's smooth. It doesn't look like he ever is trying really hard and he glides when he runs, so he never really looks explosive. Sometimes it makes players underrated by being smooth.

I can see that. I loved watching guys like Marion Barber and Tim Hightower run. They run with anger and it always looked like they were giving maximum effort.

 

[BassNBrew]

[ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ FOOTBALLGUYS VIEW ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ]

Ball is likely to be the Broncos lead back in 2013.

Source - Cecil Lammy

 

[moderated]

[ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ FOOTBALLGUYS VIEW ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ]

Ball is likely to be the Broncos lead back in 2013.

Source - Cecil Lammy

[ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ FOOTBALLGUYS VIEW ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ]

Hillman is likely to be the Broncos lead back now that McGahee is out. 2012

Source - Cecil Lammy

 

[Shutout]

[ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ FOOTBALLGUYS VIEW ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ]

Ball is likely to be the Broncos lead back in 2013.

Source - Cecil Lammy

[ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ FOOTBALLGUYS VIEW ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ]

Hillman is likely to be the Broncos lead back now that McGahee is out. 2012

Source - Cecil Lammy

Yeah, that seasl it for me. Lammy's reports from the practices have been like a Madden Cover curse. Guys look great, get reported on, and then proceed to blow out a knee or something. I'm taking anyone BUT Ball now.

 

[Norcalhoya]

Moreno's the guy til hurt IMO.

Hillman will never be the guy.

Those are my thoughts too. Hillman is a COP. Moreno, if healthy is the starter...

Exactly. I don't know how people (particularly fantasy outlets) are just assuming Ball has the inside track to be the starter. I just hope that it is clear before week 1 who the starter will be. It definitely wasn't after McGahee went down. It could be the last year's preseason Redskins backfield all over again.

 

[cstu]

In general I have a hard time getting excited by 5-10, 215 backs who run a 4.5 or higher. To me it seems like the Broncos drafted a slightly younger (3 years) version of Moreno. That offense is good enough that he'll put up RB1 numbers if he starts but I'd never feel comfortable that he's going to be the guy in the long-term.

 

[bonesman]

In general I have a hard time getting excited by 5-10, 215 backs who run a 4.5 or higher. To me it seems like the Broncos drafted a slightly younger (3 years) version of Moreno. That offense is good enough that he'll put up RB1 numbers if he starts but I'd never feel comfortable that he's going to be the guy in the long-term.

Kind of like Curtis Martin.

I think Ball could buck the trend with John Fox and rookie RBs. The kid is smart and hard working and is living his dream by being drafted for the Denver Broncos.

 

[TheFanatic]

In general I have a hard time getting excited by 5-10, 215 backs who run a 4.5 or higher. To me it seems like the Broncos drafted a slightly younger (3 years) version of Moreno. That offense is good enough that he'll put up RB1 numbers if he starts but I'd never feel comfortable that he's going to be the guy in the long-term.

Kind of like Curtis Martin.

I think Ball could buck the trend with John Fox and rookie RBs. The kid is smart and hard working and is living his dream by being drafted for the Denver Broncos.

It all comes down to whether the kid can block. Manning changes the plays at the LOS too often to have a liability in the passing attack at the RB position. He has to be able to shift quickly from taking the ball up the gut to blocking a blitzing LB. They say that RB is the easiest skill position to learn as a rookie, but that's in terms of running the ball. Here;s the ball, now go that way really fast. But in terms of pass blocking, it's a different story.

Fox has a track record with rookies and Peyton will have whatever RB in the backfield that keeps him upright. Addai wasn't a fantastic RB, but he could catch the ball and lay down a block. No way his career would've been that long with any other team but the Colts with Manning as QB. If Manning likes Ball, the guy is going to have productive years until Peyton retires and possibly beyond. If Manning doesn't like him, I hope he enjoys his time on spot duty and special teams...

 

[bonesman]

In general I have a hard time getting excited by 5-10, 215 backs who run a 4.5 or higher. To me it seems like the Broncos drafted a slightly younger (3 years) version of Moreno. That offense is good enough that he'll put up RB1 numbers if he starts but I'd never feel comfortable that he's going to be the guy in the long-term.

Kind of like Curtis Martin.

I think Ball could buck the trend with John Fox and rookie RBs. The kid is smart and hard working and is living his dream by being drafted for the Denver Broncos.

It all comes down to whether the kid can block. Manning changes the plays at the LOS too often to have a liability in the passing attack at the RB position. He has to be able to shift quickly from taking the ball up the gut to blocking a blitzing LB. They say that RB is the easiest skill position to learn as a rookie, but that's in terms of running the ball. Here;s the ball, now go that way really fast. But in terms of pass blocking, it's a different story.

Fox has a track record with rookies and Peyton will have whatever RB in the backfield that keeps him upright. Addai wasn't a fantastic RB, but he could catch the ball and lay down a block. No way his career would've been that long with any other team but the Colts with Manning as QB. If Manning likes Ball, the guy is going to have productive years until Peyton retires and possibly beyond. If Manning doesn't like him, I hope he enjoys his time on spot duty and special teams...

"Damn it Donald!"

From what I've seen he's a willing blocker, though I'm sure there's room for improvement with technique/recognition. All it requires is a little effort and I think Ball has that in spades. The aptitude and ability look like they're there.

 

[Sinrman]

He will be a solid back for at least 3-4 years. But the tread on the tire is a bit smaller on him than most backs entiring the NFL.

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

[ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ FOOTBALLGUYS VIEW ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ]

Ball is likely to be the Broncos lead back in 2013.

Source - Cecil Lammy

[ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ FOOTBALLGUYS VIEW ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ]

Hillman is likely to be the Broncos lead back now that McGahee is out. 2012



Source - Cecil Lammy

Lammy means well, but after him going into hibernation after whiffing on Hillman/Moreno, I'll look to other sources.

His offseason reports on Jeremiah Johnson are top notch.

 

[JohnnyU]

[ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ FOOTBALLGUYS VIEW ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ]

Ball is likely to be the Broncos lead back in 2013.

Source - Cecil Lammy

[ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ FOOTBALLGUYS VIEW ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ]

Hillman is likely to be the Broncos lead back now that McGahee is out. 2012



Source - Cecil Lammy

Lammy means well, but after him going into hibernation after whiffing on Hillman/Moreno, I'll look to other sources.

His offseason reports on Jeremiah Johnson are top notch.

GMs whiff all the time on every position, so I'm not sure why you're piling on Lammy.

 

[Adam Harstad]

He will be a solid back for at least 3-4 years. But the tread on the tire is a bit smaller on him than most backs entiring the NFL.

Ray Rice had pretty much the same number of college carries in one fewer season (including an insane 380 carry season), and doesn't seem to be any worse for the wear. Past workload doesn't really correlate with decline at any age, but especially in your early 20s when you're at your physical and recuperative peak, it's not an issue. John Fox agrees, fwiw- he says Ball's workload is a positive because it shows he can take a pounding.

 

[Craig_MiamiFL]

[ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ FOOTBALLGUYS VIEW ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ]

Ball is likely to be the Broncos lead back in 2013.

Source - Cecil Lammy

[ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ [ FOOTBALLGUYS VIEW ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ] ]

Hillman is likely to be the Broncos lead back now that McGahee is out. 2012



Source - Cecil Lammy

Lammy means well, but after him going into hibernation after whiffing on Hillman/Moreno, I'll look to other sources.

His offseason reports on Jeremiah Johnson are top notch.

GMs whiff all the time on every position, so I'm not sure why you're piling on Lammy.

I explained why in the post.

 

[Biabreakable]

You can stop at the part that says Moreno is a good blocker and quality receiver because that is all that's important. This is Peyton manning. That means this is a throwing team, first, foremost, and all rest stops in between. The broncos aren't looking for a pile mover because they don't move piles. They are looking for a security guard with good hands because they pass the ball.

Think of it this way: Do you think it's more likely John Elway sits in a room thinking somewhere and says "Le'ts make danged sure we get a guy that runs 4.6 ypc so that we have a good ypc on that 29% of the time we actually run those plays" or "Let's trade .8 YPC so that our $20 M QB, whom runs the show and is the alpha and omega of all our chances to win a Super Bowl has a protector and another weapon"?

If John Elway thought that was all that matters, I doubt he would have been drafting an RB in the 2nd round. If anyone thought that Moreno was the answer, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have deactivated him for half of last season, they would not have been kicking the tires on every free agent RB in the league, and they definitely would not have expended so much draft capital trying to replace him. I don't need to speculate what John Elway is thinking when his actions are telling me all I need to know.

Q:I would like you to go into more detail on (Broncos running back Knowshon) Moreno in light of his production in the Chiefs game. Peyton Manning seems comfortable with him, he catches everything thrown in his direction and he even pointed out some defensive alignments from his running back position. Is it surprising the coaches used him extensively and were rewarded given his inactivity for the last six weeks?

A:Andy, it was pretty clear in the days leading up to the Chiefs game Moreno was going to be a big part of the game plan. And as things rolled on through Friday and Saturday, the rumblings were he would start the game.

Essentially, the Broncos moved him from being a gameday inactive for eight games into the starting lineup because they felt Moreno offered them the best size-speed combination with Willis McGahee on injured reserve to go with the things they needed in the passing game.

Broncos coach John Fox wants a bigger back in the lead role if possible. And when McGahee was injured, that left Moreno as the most physical runner available on the roster. And while Moreno took part in training camp, the preseason and the early part of the regular season after surgery to repair his ACL last December, Fox said this week Moreno is really just nearing 100 percent on the leg now.

It often takes at least a calendar year, sometimes even into the second calendar year, before a player feels as if he has regained his explosiveness in the repaired knee and more importantly the confidence to run on the repaired leg the way they did before the injury.

Or as John Fox put it:

"It does take time until you're 100 percent. You're cleared to play but you're not as exact as you probably think you should be. He needed some time and he had a great attitude, great mindset throughout that period of time and just by the nature of this league and injuries are part of the game, we knew we needed him and he went about it right so that's why he looked so good."

He was not running with confidence early in the season, was impatient at times with the ball and too hesitant at others. A fumble against the Falcons certainly didn't help his cause. He had just three carries in the game . And he was then a gameday inactive for eight consecutive games.

The time away seems, at least for one game, to have helped. He looked physically stronger against the Chiefs and ran with the most patience, setting up blocks effectively, that he's shown in his time with the Broncos. One of his biggest challenges moving forward will be to consistently show that patience and vision, because he has routinely run himself out of plays by ill-timed cuts.

When the Broncos moved him up to starter this past week, it was a combination of his improving health, their desire for some size in the backfield and, perhaps most importantly, Moreno's work in pass protection.

When Moreno came into the 2009 draft, many teams questioned whether he had the skills as a runner to live up to the fact the Broncos took him with the 12th pick of the draft. Those teams also said Moreno was one of the best backs on the board that year in pass

protection.

It is a strength of his game. Where the Broncos rate that strength on the things-to-do list for their running backs can be seen in the factthey signed Jacob Hester this past weekbecause of his abilities not only as a runner and receiver, but also as a pass protector.

Most of Hester's workout with the team, just before Thanksgiving, was in pass-protection scenarios. He is expected to see time in those situations in the offense quickly, possibly as soon as Sunday against the Buccaneers.

None of this is an indictment on rookie Ronnie Hillman other than he's being asked to do things, particularly in pass protection, as an NFL player that he was not asked to do in college and he's not doing them well enough for the Broncos' liking. Hillman's learning curve still has some uphill moments on it.

His speed and big-play potential will be an important part of the Broncos offense moving forward. The Broncos just need better production from the running backs when they are asked to block. That's a big part of why Moreno jumped up the depth chart last week.

Jeff Legwold: jlegwold@denverpost.com or twitter.com/jeff_legwold

Read more:Knowshon Moreno's pass protection a big part of his move into offense - The Denver Posthttp://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_22081830/knowshon-morenos-pass-protection-big-part-his-move#ixzz2Ro2ZLYgf

I think there is a built in bias against Moreno because he was such a high 1st round draft pick who has not lived up to that lofty status. He had an ACL injury that he was not fully recovered from at the beginning of the season, that is why Moreno was inactive. Once they felt he was recovered enough they re-activated him and he played a lot once they did. I do not know why you ignore this context in regards to Moreno's status with the team.

 

[cstu]

In general I have a hard time getting excited by 5-10, 215 backs who run a 4.5 or higher. To me it seems like the Broncos drafted a slightly younger (3 years) version of Moreno. That offense is good enough that he'll put up RB1 numbers if he starts but I'd never feel comfortable that he's going to be the guy in the long-term.

Kind of like Curtis Martin.

I think Ball could buck the trend with John Fox and rookie RBs. The kid is smart and hard working and is living his dream by being drafted for the Denver Broncos.

Curtis Martin ran in the 4.4's.Emmitt Smith was over 4.5, but there's not a great track record for RB's at this size/speed.

Ball actually reminds me of Emmitt in the way he runs - great vision, straight ahead with not much wasted movement. What stands out about Ball when you watch is that he runs hard and has very quick feet to avoid tacklers. Very nice burst and with good blocking in front of him he picks up chunks of yards. He's not going to wow anybody but after the game is over you'll look at the stat line and he was 20 for 100.

 

[cstu]

He will be a solid back for at least 3-4 years. But the tread on the tire is a bit smaller on him than most backs entiring the NFL.

Ray Rice had pretty much the same number of college carries in one fewer season (including an insane 380 carry season), and doesn't seem to be any worse for the wear. Past workload doesn't really correlate with decline at any age, but especially in your early 20s when you're at your physical and recuperative peak, it's not an issue. John Fox agrees, fwiw- he says Ball's workload is a positive because it shows he can take a pounding.

I'm also in the camp that likes RB's with a lot of carries without getting injured, it's a major positive for me.

 

[MAC_32]

Cecil seems to let his fandom of the Broncos cloud his vision, the fan drowns out the analyst.

I'd bet Mcahee is the one to get cut. I'd bet the Broncos want Hillman in the 3rd down/change of pace role and Ball to eb the 2 down guy. Maybe not this year, but next year. How much of the pie Hillman and Ball take from Moreno this year...we'll see. I have more confidence in Ball than Hillman though.

 

[donkshow]

In general I have a hard time getting excited by 5-10, 215 backs who run a 4.5 or higher. To me it seems like the Broncos drafted a slightly younger (3 years) version of Moreno. That offense is good enough that he'll put up RB1 numbers if he starts but I'd never feel comfortable that he's going to be the guy in the long-term.

I'm fine with judging him on a year-to-year basis on whatever else is there in the Denver backfield.

If he can put up RB1 numbers this year, fine by me!

 

[moleculo]

In general I have a hard time getting excited by 5-10, 215 backs who run a 4.5 or higher. To me it seems like the Broncos drafted a slightly younger (3 years) version of Moreno. That offense is good enough that he'll put up RB1 numbers if he starts but I'd never feel comfortable that he's going to be the guy in the long-term.

Kind of like Curtis Martin.

I think Ball could buck the trend with John Fox and rookie RBs. The kid is smart and hard working and is living his dream by being drafted for the Denver Broncos.

Curtis Martin ran in the 4.4's.Emmitt Smith was over 4.5, but there's not a great track record for RB's at this size/speed.

Ball actually reminds me of Emmitt in the way he runs - great vision, straight ahead with not much wasted movement. What stands out about Ball when you watch is that he runs hard and has very quick feet to avoid tacklers. Very nice burst and with good blocking in front of him he picks up chunks of yards. He's not going to wow anybody but after the game is over you'll look at the stat line and he was 20 for 100.

Terrell Davis is the guy Elway compared Ball to...it's in the OP of this thread. TD was 5'11", 206 lbs, and ran a 4.7 40. You could also look at Alfred Morris: 5'9", 219 lbs, 4.68 40.

 

[Adam Harstad]

You can stop at the part that says Moreno is a good blocker and quality receiver because that is all that's important. This is Peyton manning. That means this is a throwing team, first, foremost, and all rest stops in between. The broncos aren't looking for a pile mover because they don't move piles. They are looking for a security guard with good hands because they pass the ball.

Think of it this way: Do you think it's more likely John Elway sits in a room thinking somewhere and says "Le'ts make danged sure we get a guy that runs 4.6 ypc so that we have a good ypc on that 29% of the time we actually run those plays" or "Let's trade .8 YPC so that our $20 M QB, whom runs the show and is the alpha and omega of all our chances to win a Super Bowl has a protector and another weapon"?

If John Elway thought that was all that matters, I doubt he would have been drafting an RB in the 2nd round. If anyone thought that Moreno was the answer, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have deactivated him for half of last season, they would not have been kicking the tires on every free agent RB in the league, and they definitely would not have expended so much draft capital trying to replace him. I don't need to speculate what John Elway is thinking when his actions are telling me all I need to know.

>

Q:I would like you to go into more detail on (Broncos running back Knowshon) Moreno in light of his production in the Chiefs game. Peyton Manning seems comfortable with him, he catches everything thrown in his direction and he even pointed out some defensive alignments from his running back position. Is it surprising the coaches used him extensively and were rewarded given his inactivity for the last six weeks?

A:Andy, it was pretty clear in the days leading up to the Chiefs game Moreno was going to be a big part of the game plan. And as things rolled on through Friday and Saturday, the rumblings were he would start the game.

Essentially, the Broncos moved him from being a gameday inactive for eight games into the starting lineup because they felt Moreno offered them the best size-speed combination with Willis McGahee on injured reserve to go with the things they needed in the passing game.

Broncos coach John Fox wants a bigger back in the lead role if possible. And when McGahee was injured, that left Moreno as the most physical runner available on the roster. And while Moreno took part in training camp, the preseason and the early part of the regular season after surgery to repair his ACL last December, Fox said this week Moreno is really just nearing 100 percent on the leg now.

It often takes at least a calendar year, sometimes even into the second calendar year, before a player feels as if he has regained his explosiveness in the repaired knee and more importantly the confidence to run on the repaired leg the way they did before the injury.

Or as John Fox put it:

"It does take time until you're 100 percent. You're cleared to play but you're not as exact as you probably think you should be. He needed some time and he had a great attitude, great mindset throughout that period of time and just by the nature of this league and injuries are part of the game, we knew we needed him and he went about it right so that's why he looked so good."

He was not running with confidence early in the season, was impatient at times with the ball and too hesitant at others. A fumble against the Falcons certainly didn't help his cause. He had just three carries in the game . And he was then a gameday inactive for eight consecutive games.

The time away seems, at least for one game, to have helped. He looked physically stronger against the Chiefs and ran with the most patience, setting up blocks effectively, that he's shown in his time with the Broncos. One of his biggest challenges moving forward will be to consistently show that patience and vision, because he has routinely run himself out of plays by ill-timed cuts.

When the Broncos moved him up to starter this past week, it was a combination of his improving health, their desire for some size in the backfield and, perhaps most importantly, Moreno's work in pass protection.

When Moreno came into the 2009 draft, many teams questioned whether he had the skills as a runner to live up to the fact the Broncos took him with the 12th pick of the draft. Those teams also said Moreno was one of the best backs on the board that year in pass

protection.

It is a strength of his game. Where the Broncos rate that strength on the things-to-do list for their running backs can be seen in the factthey signed Jacob Hester this past weekbecause of his abilities not only as a runner and receiver, but also as a pass protector.

Most of Hester's workout with the team, just before Thanksgiving, was in pass-protection scenarios. He is expected to see time in those situations in the offense quickly, possibly as soon as Sunday against the Buccaneers.

None of this is an indictment on rookie Ronnie Hillman other than he's being asked to do things, particularly in pass protection, as an NFL player that he was not asked to do in college and he's not doing them well enough for the Broncos' liking. Hillman's learning curve still has some uphill moments on it.

His speed and big-play potential will be an important part of the Broncos offense moving forward. The Broncos just need better production from the running backs when they are asked to block. That's a big part of why Moreno jumped up the depth chart last week.

Jeff Legwold: jlegwold@denverpost.com or twitter.com/jeff_legwold

Read more:Knowshon Moreno's pass protection a big part of his move into offense - The Denver Posthttp://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_22081830/knowshon-morenos-pass-protection-big-part-his-move#ixzz2Ro2ZLYgf

I think there is a built in bias against Moreno because he was such a high 1st round draft pick who has not lived up to that lofty status. He had an ACL injury that he was not fully recovered from at the beginning of the season, that is why Moreno was inactive. Once they felt he was recovered enough they re-activated him and he played a lot once they did. I do not know why you ignore this context in regards to Moreno's status with the team.

That's a good find, but I think it stretches my credulity if the coaching staff wants to tell me that Moreno just happened to finally return to 100% in the exact same week that they lost McGahee. Denver reactivating Moreno didn't coincide with Moreno getting healthy, it coincided with Denver running out of other options. And Moreno was plenty healthy at the start of the season- maybe not 100%, but he was healthy enough to make it through camps, preseason, and a couple regular season games without getting deactivated, so he had to be at least 90%. If a guy at 90% is a gameday inactive, then that same guy at 100% is very far off. And this all ignores 2011, when the coaching staff gave him fewer than 4 carries per game in the 6 games that both Moreno and McGahee played.

Full disclosure, I've always thought Moreno was overdrafted and a mediocre runner, and he's done absolutely nothing to change my mind in the intervening years (in fact, my opinion of his rushing skills has only gone down). With that said, this isn't me grinding an axe- as a Broncos fan, I would love nothing more than for Moreno to have a Thomas Jones-like career renaissance. I just don't think it's likely based on what I've seen of him. I also don't think the front office thinks it's likely based on their actions. In the three offseasons since this front office took over, they've signed a proven veteran and spent a late 2nd and early 3rd draft pick at RB. In games where they have any other viable option whatsoever, they've given Moreno an average of 4 carries per game. These are not the actions of a franchise that is confident in the RB they inherited. These are the actions of a franchise that wants to give the ball to someone other than the RB they inherited.

Now, who knows. Maybe McGahee gets cut (I think there's a good chance), and Ball isn't far enough along yet to represent a viable option. In that scenario, I would imagine Moreno would get the bulk of the workload, just like he did down the stretch last year. And in that situation, Moreno would possess some strong fantasy value, just like he did down the stretch last year. That wouldn't change the fact that Moreno's still just a guy keeping the seat warm, and it's only a matter of time before he loses his job and gets cut or relegated to his usual four carries a game.

Cecil seems to let his fandom of the Broncos cloud his vision, the fan drowns out the analyst.

I'd bet Mcahee is the one to get cut. I'd bet the Broncos want Hillman in the 3rd down/change of pace role and Ball to eb the 2 down guy. Maybe not this year, but next year. How much of the pie Hillman and Ball take from Moreno this year...we'll see. I have more confidence in Ball than Hillman though.

I don't think Cecil is a Broncos fan. I want to say he's a Pittsburgh fan, but I think I might be confusing him with Bloom. Either way, just because he covers the team doesn't mean he's a fan of the team- in fact, most sportswriters are not fans of the team they cover.

I agree 100% with the second paragraph of your post, though. That's exactly how I see the situation playing out- Denver's brass wants Ball and Hillman to run with the job, but Moreno's got it until they prove they can take it from him. What you think of Ball/Hillman this year is going to depend a lot on how high you are on those two and how low you are on Moreno as an obstacle to playing time.

 

[MAC_32]

Sig is the Steelers fan, not sure if Cecil is a Broncos fan or not but he lives near there, goes to camp, does a lot of spots for the Broncos on tv/radio, I believe he covers all the home games too, etc. Seems every year he is doing Broncos PR on here. Maybe my perception is off, but I made a mental note of it a couple of years ago and haven't seen anything since to sway me otherwise.

 

[Buffaloes]

think there is a built in bias against Moreno because he was such a high 1st round draft pick who has not lived up to that lofty status. He had an ACL injury that he was not fully recovered from at the beginning of the season, that is why Moreno was inactive. Once they felt he was recovered enough they re-activated him and he played a lot once they did. I do not know why you ignore this context in regards to Moreno's status with the team.

he was deactivated because he was so bad the first few games. he looked lost. he was reactivated only once McGahee was injured. I don't remember reading anything saying he hadn't fully recovered from his ACL. his vision and overall effectiveness as a runner had improved not only from those 1st few games of 2012, but from his entire career. It was probably more he understood it was his last opportunity and he put everything together. From all that I've gathered, McGahee's injury was the catalyst for Moreno's activation. I agree with SSOG in that the Denver Post article seemed to stretch a bit on the Moreno's healthy so now he's active slant. All that said, he filled in admirably and, imo, outplayed McGahee. His struggles in short yardage and his penchant for getting hurt at the wrong times do not work in his favor, though.

 

[Cookiemonster]

Nobody is giving Moreno props for his running ability. It's below average. Maybe even poor by NFL standards. He does pass block well, runs good routes and catches the ball pretty well. Peyton Manning is standing there in the huddle. What do we do?

 

[Faust]

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap1000000167809/article/why-denver-broncos-took-montee-ball-over-eddie-lacy

Why Denver Broncos took Montee Ball over Eddie Lacy

By Chris Wesseling

Around the League Writer

NFL.com's Albert Breer confirmed in Tuesday's Draft Notes article that Packers second-round running back Eddie Lacy slipped in the 2013 NFL Draft because clubs were "nervous about his medicals."

Although a knee injury and torn pectoral muscle kept Lacy from working out at the NFL Scouting Combine, it's the 2012 turf toe injury that had teams questioning whether he would enjoy a long NFL career.

We already knew the Pittsburgh Steelers "would not touch" Lacy due to the toe fusion surgery. In a Tuesday conference call with season ticket holders, director of player personnel Matt Russell revealed that the Denver Broncos chose Montee Ball over Lacy due in part to the toe injury.

"We liked both these backs," Russell said. "We were worried about a toe injury that (Lacy) had." Russell specifically mentioned concerns about the length of Lacy's playing career while suggesting the toe was indeed the reason for the bruising back's draft-day free fall.

The Broncos believe they have a "gem" in Ball, with executive VP of football operations John Elway invoking comparisons to 1998 NFL Most Valuable Player Terrell Davis.

Time will tell if Elway made the right call. Lacy insists he will ready to play in Week 1. With a clear road to the bell-cow role in Green Bay's offense, he's a good bet to outproduce Ball as a rookie. The question is whether that toe fusion surgery comes back to haunt him in subsequent years.

Follow Chris Wesseling on Twitter @ChrisWesseling.

 

[Biabreakable]

think there is a built in bias against Moreno because he was such a high 1st round draft pick who has not lived up to that lofty status. He had an ACL injury that he was not fully recovered from at the beginning of the season, that is why Moreno was inactive. Once they felt he was recovered enough they re-activated him and he played a lot once they did. I do not know why you ignore this context in regards to Moreno's status with the team.

he was deactivated because he was so bad the first few games. he looked lost. he was reactivated only once McGahee was injured. I don't remember reading anything saying he hadn't fully recovered from his ACL. his vision and overall effectiveness as a runner had improved not only from those 1st few games of 2012, but from his entire career. It was probably more he understood it was his last opportunity and he put everything together. From all that I've gathered, McGahee's injury was the catalyst for Moreno's activation. I agree with SSOG in that the Denver Post article seemed to stretch a bit on the Moreno's healthy so now he's active slant. All that said, he filled in admirably and, imo, outplayed McGahee. His struggles in short yardage and his penchant for getting hurt at the wrong times do not work in his favor, though.

I hear what both you guys are saying about this and I agree the Broncos have been looking for a new RB. As stated from Fox's quotes he is looking for a bigger RB. I think that has always been the case from Stephan Davis, Shelton, Stewart, McGahee. I do not think Moreno is who Fox wants starting but at the same time I do not see Ball as a direct replacement. I think Peyton is the main driver of who their starting RB will br and I have no doubt that Ball will get the opportunity to be that player. I just see either McGahee or Moreno being the starter this season and likely getting the largest piece of the action. I could see Ball getting 60-200 carries maybe depending on how much they run, and how quickly Ball earns Mannings trust in pass pro. I think a lot of the check downs from Manning will be going to whichever veteran is playing on pass downs, which likely will not be Ball. So given the hurry up and this being a passing team I see that player getting somewhere near 60 percent of the snaps with Ball being more of a early down player. I do not see Hillman in this mix much at all, even after an injury. Last season showed us that.

 

[Cecil Lammey]

QuoteHillman, who had dropped below 180 pounds by the end of his rookie season

Whoa. If that's right feel free stick the fork in.

Most forget Clinton Portis dropped below 185 as a rookie for the Broncos. Fairly common for rookie RBs to drop weight during their first season. Broncos are working with Ronnie to add more to his frame. He's also been in LA working out with top trainer (MJD, Reggie Bush, Marshawn Lynch) Travelle Gaines.

 

[Tanner9919]

this is the most important part people are missing.good post..

the guy runs behind a massive o-line - one of the biggest in NCAA..

Solid talent, but a few things working against him in my opinion.

He doesn't do anything special, and he's just the latest in a long line of productive backs running behind Wisconsin's offensive line.

John Fox has a history of loving veterans and making rookies earn playing time. Is McGahee going to be back? And even if he isn't, what of Moreno? Anyone who watched him last year saw a very different RB - hit the holes hard, fell forward, great pass protections, good receiver, a nice fit for what Peyton Manning needs back there. Very Addai-like. Given their skillsets, I'm not sure Ball is a legit step up from what Moreno was late last year, and Moreno has the leg up.

Combine that with Hillman's potential presense on 3rd downs, and I don't see a lot of upside in him unless everything falls perfectly into place.

 

[cstu]

this is the most important part people are missing.good post..

the guy runs behind a massive o-line - one of the biggest in NCAA..

Solid talent, but a few things working against him in my opinion.

He doesn't do anything special, and he's just the latest in a long line of productive backs running behind Wisconsin's offensive line.

John Fox has a history of loving veterans and making rookies earn playing time. Is McGahee going to be back? And even if he isn't, what of Moreno? Anyone who watched him last year saw a very different RB - hit the holes hard, fell forward, great pass protections, good receiver, a nice fit for what Peyton Manning needs back there. Very Addai-like. Given their skillsets, I'm not sure Ball is a legit step up from what Moreno was late last year, and Moreno has the leg up.

Combine that with Hillman's potential presense on 3rd downs, and I don't see a lot of upside in him unless everything falls perfectly into place.

On paper he doesn't look that much better than P.J. Hill but his it's his vision that separates him. Here's an article by Waldman about him.

I do think Ball is not a whole lot different than Moreno, but Moreno might not even be on the team:

Knowshon Moreno: One of Moreno/McGahee likely to be cut loose Knowshon Moreno - RB - DEN - May. 8 - 1:29 pm et The Denver Post expects the Broncos to release one of Knowshon Moreno or Willis McGahee.

It's painfully obvious one of Moreno and McGahee are on the way out following the selection of Montee Ball, and McGahee is the far likelier candidate. Although Moreno barely survived final cuts last summer, he's both far younger and cheaper than McGahee, who's scheduled to make $2.5 million in his age-32 campaign. Going on 26, Moreno will make $1.7 million in the final year of his rookie contract. Moreno's competent play down the stretch last season likely bought him another year in Denver. May. 8 - 1:29 pm et

Source: Denver Post

 

[Bob Magaw]

this could just be construed as a puff piece... notes peyton manning spending extra time with ball... the most interesting thing about the article to me was manning stating he doesn't think HC fox will bring him along slowly... concern based on fox's past has no doubt caused many to be sceptical and downgrade him in redraft...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/broncos/2013/05/30/montee-ball-peyton-manning/2374089/

 

[Adam Harstad]

I'm really warming to the idea that Montee Ball is going to lead the Broncos in carries and rushing yards this season. I think he's going to be an absolute steal for whoever grabs him in these early drafts, although I'd expect his ADP to rise as the season approaches.

 

[JHuber77]

McGahee is skipping OTA's (no reason given). I know it's voluntary but its giving more time for Ball to work with Manning. I agree that his stock will rise once camp begins and people start to realize that he will more than likely be the starter and will be a solid pickup in drafts.

 

[Mile High]

McGahee is skipping OTA's (no reason given). I know it's voluntary but its giving more time for Ball to work with Manning. I agree that his stock will rise once camp begins and people start to realize that he will more than likely be the starter and will be a solid pickup in drafts.

I heard it's because he is still rehabbing from his injury. But McGahee isn't helping his case for not being cut by not being around the team during the OTAs. Edited to add: Moreno isn't around either. They both are giving the Broncos just another reason to move on without them.